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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#151

Post by lorenzhs »

wolfgke wrote: post #109
shuntress wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. If we had a CS field dominated almost entirely by women then the "women only" programs would be undesirable. This is a man in a boat protesting that a drowning woman is being helped out of the water but he is receiving no such equivalent assistance.

> You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. I live in Germany - and there the situation is IMHO different.

What are you on about? I'm a PhD student at one of the top German universities for CompSci. There are around 10% women in our bachelor's and master's programmes. The department is actively trying to get more women interested in studying computer science, because it very much is a boys' club.

The problem isn't about access to courses. It's that existing programmes don't appeal to women, and it's dumb to ignore half of the population when you need more qualified people. That's why we need to make getting into computer science more attractive to women. Acknowledging that the current system just doesn't work for them is a necessary first step towards making it work for everyone.

Re: Computer Science Education

#152

Post by krashnburn200 »

rifung wrote: post #135
defnfoo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

Disclaimer: I work at Google (opinions are my own) How would the people filing the lawsuit know whether Google didn't hire them due to their age or for other reasons? I see posts all the time about people complaining they didn't get into company X because of some silly reason but frankly, unless you are the interviewer you likely will never know the reason. Shouldn't we wait to see the outcome of the case? Indeed Goo…

To play devils advocate here, Google has been an absolutely mind blowing company. They didn't do it by being Average, and perfect diversity means exactly that... Average.

Why are people so interested in screwing up something that obviously works, and works so amazingly well in pursuit of absurd ideologies?

Re: Computer Science Education

#153

Post by paulddraper »

pliptvo wrote: post #105
paulddraper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the problem? Discrimination. It has been justified for centuries with all manner of reasoned arguments. Hopefully we will eventually learn discrimination is a Bad Idea.

Discrimination isn't just an idea, it's a material reality. Women are systematically disadvantaged on every level of tech, from the assumption that 'nerds' are boys, which seems to go back to IT marketing from the 1980s[1], to their being prevented from holding senior offices in the biggest tech corporations. They are discriminated against by a male-dominated industry and culture. Only when the systemic, material con…

> Only when [X happens] will it make sense to no longer discriminate.

Problem is, no one can agree when X happens (or has happened).

"Only when we're safe will it make sense to no longer spy on all our citizens."

"Only when our enemies are defeated will it make sense to no longer have Emperor Caesar."

Re: Computer Science Education

#154

Post by yeukhon »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

I have a theory to explain this.

If you count average is 29, then that means there is a whole bunch of 25 - 35 in the range, all over the world. Typically CS students graduate from undergraduate around 22, 23 years old. Google and FB are very popular in the new graduate community and they needed a lot of fresh blood every year to fill in the gaps. Not every position at Google is going to be exciting. The job description is catchy but the your responsibility and assignment may be dull. A lot of older folks may find dissatisfying and because of their seniority they can find similar pay at other companies. There is also a network effect. Sure, younger folks tend to connect with other young folks.

Like other comments said, one can't prove age discrimination easily. Google has a very rigorous hiring process. One ex-Google said one time the hiring committing sat in a room and rejected all applicants. The recruitment team came in and said those profiles were the committee members themselves when they applied to Google.

Re: Computer Science Education

#155

Post by wolfgke »

lorenzhs wrote: post #151
wolfgke wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. I live in Germany - and there the situation is IMHO different.

What are you on about? I'm a PhD student at one of the top German universities for CompSci. There are around 10% women in our bachelor's and master's programmes. The department is actively trying to get more women interested in studying computer science, because it very much is a boys' club. The problem isn't about access to courses. It's that existing programmes don't appeal to women, and it's dumb to ignore half of…

> What are you on about?

The laws for women quota: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13551798

Otherwise:

Nobody forces women to study a non-STEM subject - they decide it themselves. So doing promotional programs for women has the implicit implication "women are too stupid to get on their own what they should study (while men are smart enough to find this out on their own)" - something I would never ever claim.

Re: Computer Science Education

#156

Post by macintux »

reader5000 wrote: post #134
pliptvo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well that's just discriminating against nerds This is exactly the problem. You've assumed that 'nerds' -- people who are skilled and passionate about tech things -- are male. It's that kind of assumption which enforces a massive mental barrier for women to be able to consider themselves legitimately passionate and skilled about tech, and also for men to recognise them as such too. Until the association of nerds wit…

"Stereotypes" come from patterns in empirical reality. They are not created and administered by some Evil White Male committee as you seem to think. Women are in no way discriminated against in tech, nor have they ever been. Passionate and skilled women in tech certainly exist, they are just relatively rare. Withholding resources from boys because of their gender actually is discrimination, and should not be encourag…

> Women are in no way discriminated against in tech, nor have they ever been.

I don't even.

Re: Computer Science Education

#157

Post by rifung »

krashnburn200 wrote: post #152
rifung wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work at Google (opinions are my own) How would the people filing the lawsuit know whether Google didn't hire them due to their age or for other reasons? I see posts all the time about people complaining they didn't get into company X because of some silly reason but frankly, unless you are the interviewer you likely will never know the reason. Shouldn't we wait to see the outcome of the case? Indeed Goo…

To play devils advocate here, Google has been an absolutely mind blowing company. They didn't do it by being Average, and perfect diversity means exactly that... Average. Why are people so interested in screwing up something that obviously works, and works so amazingly well in pursuit of absurd ideologies?

I believe it's because research supports the idea that greater diversity leads to a better workforce.

For example, http://www.forbes.com/sites/ekaterinawalter/2014/01/14/reapi...

There have been specific times as well that being in our little bubble has hurt product decisions as well, although I don't think I'm supposed to go into those.

Re: Computer Science Education

#158

Post by FT_intern »

hdctambien wrote: post #52
titraprutr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Large companies are judged by the diversity of their employees And here is the problem - diversity has become a goal rather than a natural consequence of everyone having equal chances. It's not the lack of diversity that those companies should focus on - much more important is an elimination of any kind of discrimination based on gender/race/religion etc.

I see it as more of a temporary compensation for earlier gender based biases. In a world where boys and girls are given the same opportunities at (even) younger ages, you wouldn't need something like this. As it stands right now, it is intimidating for a girl to sign up for her first computer science class knowing that it will be full of boys that have been encouraged to do computer sciencey things from an earlier ag…

>I see it as more of a temporary compensation for earlier gender based biases.

That hasn't been proven or quantified. If you're going to use sexism to fix perceived sexism, you should quantify and prove the original sexism first.

Re: Computer Science Education

#159

Post by FT_intern »

hdctambien wrote: post #108
wolfgke wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see it as more of a temporary compensation for earlier gender based biases. So you tolerate that a complete sex shall be punished for former sins. Clearly not my sense of justice. > In a world where boys and girls are given the same opportunities at (even) younger ages, you wouldn't need something like this. Everybody can use the internet to learn coding. But at least to me it seems that mostly boys (with few exc…

> So you tolerate that a complete sex shall be punished for former sins This is not a zero-sum game. Creating a new opportunity for girls does not remove an existing opportunity for a boy. > But at least to me it seems that mostly boys (with few exceptions) seem to love doing this - in particular from young age on Maybe you should try talking to more girls and asking them what they are interested in.

> This is not a zero-sum game. Creating a new opportunity for girls does not remove an existing opportunity for a boy.

Head count is orthogonal to gender make up of the company

Re: Computer Science Education

#160

Post by Traubenfuchs »

BorgHunter wrote: post #74
lineindc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer science is like a self-devaluating industry. We have tons of websites dedicated to teaching our trade, most of them for free. We actively encourage everybody to learn to code, and tell them how easy it is, and how it makes you a better person. We say schools should teach everybody how to code. Do you imagine medics, attorneys, engineers, etc doing the same things about their own professions/skills? "Yes I'm…

What I'm getting from your post is: When you teach other people, you devalue your own knowledge. Knowledge should be hoarded, guarded jealously, and others discouraged from learning the things you know. Because if knowledge is shared, that knowledge becomes less valuable, and so you are less valuable, and so can earn less money. Is this a fair statement of your views, or am I misinterpreting you?

From an individual & egoistical perspective, that is a very logical point of view.
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