China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone • Hacker News Board

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#151

Post by unityByFreedom » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 1:44 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #115

woodruffw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents. The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations. More to the point, your potential employers don't get access to your personal life, beyond what you divulge to them and whatever informati…

> The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations. Is the fact that private companies do the tracking supposed to make me feel better? It doesn't; it only increases the likelihood that the information will be sold to unknown 4th parties or auctioned at bankruptcy fire-sales. Not even a month has gone by since…

> Is the fact that private companies do the tracking supposed to make me feel better?

YES!! A government has much more power than a company operating under it, particularly in a single-party state.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#152

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #120

woodruffw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents. The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations. More to the point, your potential employers don't get access to your personal life, beyond what you divulge to them and whatever informati…

Any bureaucratic system will assume the features of its creator - for North America that would mean collusion between the public and private sectors. I guess that in eastern countries you will get something uncompromisingly cruel on the one side - but it will also have its loopholes that can be gamed/hacked by the subjects/citizens.

ah, i forgot to add sources:

for a study of north american bureaucracy - 'The Utopia of rules’ by David Graber (my summary here http://mosermichael.github.io/cstuff/all/ramblings/2015/03/2... )

for the study of Russian/Soviet bureaucracy - 'Dead Souls' by Nikolai Gogol http://robobees.seas.harvard.edu/files/gov2126/files/gogol_d...

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#153

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

> This is a wake-up call to the people of united states who are listening too much to the unjust and undue criticism of the US govt for surveillance. Post-Snowden some leftists are taking undue advantage of the atmosphere to spread their fear mongering anti-democracy propaganda amongst US citizens.

I don't know why you would equate opposition of mass surveillance with "anti-democracy propaganda". A major point of opposing mass surveillance is that it's anti-democratic for the government to be able to dig up dirt on anybody with the press of a button.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#154

Post by aerovistae » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #34

anexprogrammer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched it last night and was struck by how much impact had been lost by Netflix transition. OK they were clearly going for humour, but even with bigger production, and good acting the longer running time diluted it so much. We didn't need the star rating explained every 2 mins for the first 20. Though I think it was that one that's based on a Charlie Brooker story, rather than written by. I actually paused after t…

I just finished the third and have liked all three but agree with you completely. The original runs packed far more punch than what I've seen so far.

Strike that, the fourth episode is amazing and as good as any made previously.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#155

Post by sgt101 » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #143

sgt101 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the lenders were aware and thought that the borrowers were unsuitable but thought that they had discovered a way that would allow high risk loans to be made safely. A lot of really clever Ph.D's had said that securitisation of these loans would work to manage and distribute the risk. I remember going to a dinner party and being lectured by one of these guys and thinking that it made no sense to me, I fel…

Interesting point. Certainly, the people who put the products together didn't do the math correctly. I think the major problem there is the assumption that homeowner defaults are independent random variables. In such a case, the high credit ratings for derivatives of subprime debt contracts would make total sense. However, if home prices decrease simultaneously and people go underwater on their loans, then suddenly t…

Assumption is a key word. It's hard for people to spot and test assumptions, and it didn't happen in the run up to 2007. Also I think group think is a killer - people go along with the pack, there is often no diversity of opinion or approach. If I ran an investment bank I'd run separate analysis teams, geographically separated and organisationally partitioned. Could save the odd $10billion...

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#156

Post by girzel » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

Coincidently, an article[1] just came down my WeChat pipeline about the population clean-up of Beijing. It's a great, classic propaganda article, full of pictures and statistics about how crowded Beijing is, and lots of "wouldn't it be nice if there were fewer people?" and "look how hard your government has had to work, don't you feel sorry for us?".

Basically they're driving out those who don't have Beijing housing registration. The propaganda is addressed to those who will enjoy the relief after the undesirables are gone. No one speaks to the undesirables.

The one-child policy may be over, but the Chinese government's manipulation of the lives of its citizens is alive and well.

[1]: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA3Mzc3MTc0Mg==&mid=265293...

Edit: Here's another link (sorry, also in Chinese) from June, laying out the bones of the policy to drive people out of the capital. Again, posed as a great policy with no downsides. http://www.china.com.cn/guoqing/2016-06/17/content_38687237....

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#157

Post by chinese_dan » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

hilop wrote: post #58

chinese_dan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're insane. This is about having full control over the population. Imagine a world where saying something bad about a company like Airbnb means you won't get a loan from the bank because the owner is a communist party member and your worthiness score is now reduced to an unacceptable level. This is a bad idea not because it's the Chinese government. The Chinese government is bad and this is just one more terrible…

Hey, in China being a member of the Communist Party helps you get a loan.

Did you even read my comment? In my hypothetical situation, Airbnb was owned by a communist party member. A person said something negative about the company and had his/her overall score reduced.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#158

Post by tmptmp » Sun, Oct 23, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #72

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

China is not a communist state these days nor I'm not aware of mainstream Western liberals praising communism. (sources on the latter?)

>>China is not a communist state these days

That's your opinion. FYI, China has the dreaded communist politburo running the show.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#159

Post by tmptmp » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 1:22 AM UTC

alextooter wrote: post #78

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

You are total wrong. In fact,today China is not communist/Marxist at all.China is more Capitalism than USA. The word communist/Marxist is only mentioned when holding big meetings.

>>China is more Capitalism than USA.

China is not at all capitalist as there is no free market, and you may say it's not communist/marxist if it pleases you but it's a communist party controlled tyranny. *

If anything, China is much, much more tyrannical and dictatorial than USA. Tyranny and brutal dictatorships is only what communism/Marxism have produced in large amounts. The communism/Marxism have produced very little good and very large evil wherever they got foothold.

* A Chinese citizen cannot even move within China without getting permits from the communist politburo approved officials, forget about him/her being able to launch a business freely.

Edit: added * details

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#160

Post by closeparen » Mon, Oct 24, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Yes, and?

Should we turn credit into a market for lemons? Just ratchet everyone's access to credit down to what's now granted to those with bad credit? Go back to the days of "how respectable do you look walking into the bank?"

Should the IRS spend its finite resources looking for fraud where it's less likely to be?

Should middle-aged people with clean records in Accords pay the same premiums as people 19-year-olds with DUI convictions in WRXes?

Should the state assign friends/spouses by RNG and enforce that you spend equal time with each?

People are different. They have different personalities, different behaviors, different risk profiles. It makes no sense to ignore these things. In the organization examples you've given, at least, it's much better to use data-driven, evidence-based models kicking out scores than to rely on the prejudices and informal gossip networks of gatekeepers - like we did before we were sophisticated enough for records.

Even where scores aren't appropriate, you're going to allocate your resources - like attention - to people you enjoy over people you don't.

China's system is problematic because it's assessing something we think should not be assessed or considered anywhere - loyalty to the Party. But they were likely already doing that anyway, with informal gossip networks among Party officials. Executed correctly, the "social credit score" system should serve that end more accurately, with less corruption and ultimately more egalitarianism. We just don't think the end should be served.