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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#151

Post by pjc50 »

marknutter wrote: post #123
pjc50 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam" What do those three things actually mean though? And what would it mean to end them? Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants. What does it mean to end multiculturalism? Formal ban on the teaching of minority languages, as in the bad old days when the UK tried to stamp out Gaeli…

> multiculturalism Typically, this means the various campaigns that push political correctness related to race and culture. While the intentions might be virtuous, what usually ends up happening is people on the right become skeptical about "newspeak" and people on the left accuse the right of being "racist" (a small minority actually are). The divide gets wider. I hope that you're not being deliberately obtuse to tr…

> Use your imagination and try to think if there's anything about the push for multiculturalism and how it's being done that could be problematic.

You're asking me to make a strawman and argue against it. I'm asking people to explain their position and be specific about what they're against and what they want done about it.

> Germany has unrestrained immigration.

No they don't. They even have a handy website in English to explain what rules apply: http://www.bamf.de/EN/Migration/migration-node.html ; if you, as (I guess?) a US national landed in Germany and decided to stay and work, you'd find out fairly quickly that it's not unrestricted.

What they have done is fulfil their obligations under the Hague convention on refugees. This does not automatically grant the refugees indefinite leave to remain or German nationality.

> skepticism about Islam

What does this actually mean in practice, though? Does it mean allowing or encouraging officials to ask people their religion and discriminate against them on that basis?

The UK labour party is currently having a fight over the mirror image of this question, which involves distinguishing between the state of Israel, "Zionism", and people of Jewish ethnicity and religion. The distinctions are easily lost in careless rhetoric but very important.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#152

Post by sbmassey »

Honestly I think we are just finally seeing the effect of the fall of mass media - there is no real replacement for the traditional establishment newspapers with enough gravitas to give anyone confidence in our institutions - even the media currently considered quality is mostly whining, hysteria and buzzfeed adverts.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#153

Post by splouk »

pjc50 wrote: post #103
laichzeit0 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and…

"multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam" What do those three things actually mean though? And what would it mean to end them? Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants. What does it mean to end multiculturalism? Formal ban on the teaching of minority languages, as in the bad old days when the UK tried to stamp out Gaeli…

> Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants.

I think people are definitely frustrated with how the refugee crisis was dealt. There is a perception -- whether true or not -- that Merkel opened the floodgates for unfettered extra-EU immigration. You are right in that there seems to be no serious solutions to these perceived problems, just a build-up of anger.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#154

Post by ryandrake »

marknutter wrote: post #115
Throwaway23412 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be…

But we do want growth. Would you prefer the opposite – stagnation? How's that working out for Europe? "Trickle-down economics" was never an actual concept. It was a silly characterization of policies that favored keeping corporate taxes low in the name of encouraging capital investment and it's been responsible for the strength of our economy over the past 40 years. Everyone loves to rail against wealth inequality (t…

> Someone having 1000 times more money than you doesn't really affect you.

This is observably not true. Prices increase for everyone when average incomes (demand) go up. So if people around me suddenly start making more and I don't, suddenly, I'm paying more for things, and am worse off. If you want a concrete example look at Bay Area housing prices.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#155

Post by Devasta »

DominikR wrote: post #91
jacquesm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In lala-economic-theory-land yes. But this is not companies competing for the favors of customers. This is nation states competing for the favors of companies and that is a totally different matter. In the real world you need taxes to operate a country and with big business being able to relocate their capital and their profits at a moments notice corporations have a substantial advantage over nation states (which ar…

> In lala-economic-theory-land yes. But this is not companies competing for the favors of customers. This is nation states competing for the favors of companies and that is a totally different matter. Why is it bad when businesses find that conditions for them constantly get better everywhere? Is there something inherently evil or bad about businesses? This is usually a position hardcore Socalists would take. > In th…

>Why is it bad when businesses find that conditions for them constantly get better everywhere?

If those conditions are getting better at the expense of the local populace, then it most certainly can be bad.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#156

Post by api »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #6

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

Neoliberalism is also allowing authoritarian states to export authoritarianism via cheap near slave labor.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#157

Post by Joof »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #79
jacquesm wrote: post #15

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and…

Is it too far left? Current polling leads me to believe that the people are beginning to lean more left themselves. Trump isn't exactly winning.

Their greivences are real; mine are similar, but I don't believe that the policies and reactions that are trumpeted are going to fix their grievances.

Consider immigration as a concern. Why? Competition for jobs, crime and an exploding population of unskilled workers. Education programs (creating skilled Americans, reducing immigrant birth-rate and crime) and stabilizing Mexico are probably the most beneficial long term solutions, but I hear no discussion around this.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#158

Post by xyzzyz »

internaut wrote: post #137
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

> Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. > The EU made a strategic mistake here, which is that they have been partially (together with the US) responsible for the destabil…

I'm quite certain you'll find a lot of Europeans sharing those sentiments, but if you think you speak for overwhelming majority of of them, you are mistaken.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#159

Post by laichzeit0 »

pjc50 wrote: post #103
laichzeit0 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and…

"multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam" What do those three things actually mean though? And what would it mean to end them? Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants. What does it mean to end multiculturalism? Formal ban on the teaching of minority languages, as in the bad old days when the UK tried to stamp out Gaeli…

> Islam

Muslims killing people because it is Haram to draw cartoon pictures of their imaginary sky god. Muslims sexually harassing woman in Cologne on New Years. Muslims "call to prayer" blaring over load speakers in non-Islamic countries but in their own Muslim created "suburbs". Muslims wanting public swimming pools gender-segregated.

If the only way to break the ebb of this tide is through conservative/right-leaning/populist politics then this is exactly what will happen, if the majority so wills it.

The actual point is that these are real or perceived to be real grievances that the current political elite are _refusing to entertain as legitimate concerns_. They're not even asking for a "definition". They are flat-out dismissing it as bigotry, racism, "a small minority of disgruntled people", etc. So people have turned to e.g. Trump, who openly talks about this and offers plain and simple plans that address these issues: Build a big wall, deport millions of illegals, etc. You can disagree, but it's a simple solution that people understand.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#160

Post by RobertKerans »

wallace_f wrote: post #118
kuschku wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other comment was condescending and name-calling - this one was just pointing that out.

So don't diminish your own argument by dropping to their level. What is the condescending insult you're referring to by the way? Lefties?

I would say yes, given that it's such a simplistic framing of the situation - the impression given (whether intended or not) is ah, those liberals and socialists with their multicultural dreams! When will they wake up and see that it doesn't work! The response was fine
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