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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

121–130 of 227 posts

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#121
I think the assessments given by many people are a bit silly. You can't be a bigot or a facist in voting for Brexit. It's absolutely ridiculous people overlook the basic issues at play such as Ireland having to charge for water or basically allowing an entire group to set up laws and have very little say in the process (Its an EU wide law and there's basically no say about it).

I think years from now once the enchantment of free movement is over people will realise the beast (Thte EU) that it is.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your comment except with this comparison: > Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. > If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. Before the recent migratory crisis free movement of people was no…

I'm not well-versed in EU politics but I find some parts of what you say surprising. After Brexit, there were reports of racist signs some idiots had put up. These weren't against syrian refugees, but rather against a particular former eastern bloc country.

There never was and never will be coherence in regards to this. Think of copycat crimes as a similar phenomena. Its basically a venting of poorly defined anger and frustration against anything "different".

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#123
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and…

"multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam" What do those three things actually mean though? And what would it mean to end them? Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants. What does it mean to end multiculturalism? Formal ban on the teaching of minority languages, as in the bad old days when the UK tried to stamp out Gaeli…

> multiculturalism

Typically, this means the various campaigns that push political correctness related to race and culture. While the intentions might be virtuous, what usually ends up happening is people on the right become skeptical about "newspeak" and people on the left accuse the right of being "racist" (a small minority actually are). The divide gets wider. I hope that you're not being deliberately obtuse to try to prove your point. Use your imagination and try to think if there's anything about the push for multiculturalism and how it's being done that could be problematic.

> unrestrained immigration

Germany has unrestrained immigration. They've taken in something like 600k Syrian refugees while Turkey has taken in over 2M. Here in the US we have an unprotected border that illegal immigrants cross in order to live and work here and the left is trying to push policies that would slowly give them amnesty. Your interpretation of "unrestrained immigration" seems to be deliberately avoiding the hot-button topics.

> Islam

I very much doubt that the GP is talking about "ending Islam", but it sure makes it easier to argue against their post to interpret it that way, doesn't it? If people on the left can't understand the desire to have a bit more skepticism about Islam in light of the recent raft of ISIS and ISIS inspired terrorist attacks then I'm not sure civil discussion about the issue can actually be had. It's unfortunate, because I definitely sympathize with the position that says we should be tolerant of other cultures. But if that tolerance comes at the expense of security and requires labeling conservatives "racist" for having skepticism all that's going to do is result in more populist candidates and a further swing against progressive ideals.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#124

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

Stuff going on with the Australian federal election last weekend (2016-07-02) is pretty interesting, too. [0] [1] We’re still not sure who is going to be running the country yet. Almost a quarter of the votes went to minor parties and independents, which is the highest on record I believe. Derryn Hinch (aka “the human headline”) is now a senator, along with Pauline Hanson, who I imagine campaigned on building a wall…

In South Australia, NXT received 21% of the vote with a party tagline of "Sick of toxic politics? Give NXT a go!" The founder has had a fairly strong profile in SA politics for almost 20 years, but got virtually nothing in terms of interstate votes.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#125

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be…

I am skeptical about the roofs over people's head argument. This is being used by buyers to rationalize mind boggling home values in Toronto and Vancouver. If the jobs keep being crappy, young people will just move away to better economic environments. Canada is constantly losing a lot of its top talent to the US because of this.

I think the true cause of the unaffordable housing is the insanely low interest rates. The people at the helm are attempting growth at all costs.

Edit: it is really interesting to contrast Toronto with SF. Both are really nice places to live without cost of living concerns. Both have insane home prices. Rents are relatively cheap in Toronto because of basic demand and supply. SF has great paying jobs, Toronto does not. Will be interesting to see how things pan out over the next decade in both cities.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#126

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

It isn't just sale of public institutions. In many cases, it is attempts to maintain the status quo when circumstances have clearly changed. Public sector pensions are a perfect example of this. I think most software engineers don't realize how good public servants have it. In a time of very little safe asset growth, defined benefit pension plans are simply unsustainable without massive increases in contributions. Ye…

I see that too. What seems to be happening is that old public sector union employees are given comparable wages to what they got before the crunch.

Then the younger generation of police officers and nurses are receiving almost nothing. They are literally on min wage. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be a police for nine euros an hour.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#127
post #85

Most people don't know what's going on in government and judge things by how life is around them. Unfortunately that's been bad in many places due mostly to deflation of a type not much seem since the 1930s IMHO. This then gets blamed on the politicians, immigrants and the like as most people couldn't even tell you what "insufficient aggregate demand" means.

Y'know, it also gets blamed on the rich and corporations which is just as populist.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#128
Sorry, i need to brain dump something.

A: the free travel of workers within EU was basically there since the early coal and steel agreement.

B: said workers still needed to present passports etc when crossing borders.

C: the Schengen agreement removes the passport requirement (UK is not a signatory to it though).

D: EU expands eastwards, leading to an influx of workers that can underbid locals.

E: refugee crisis ends up being the straw that breaks the camels back.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#129
I read all comments on HN so far here. No mention to the huge shift in South America.

Also I am from Brazil.

First, what I mean by huge shift:

During cold war, us backed, violently (for example by threatening to bomb rio de janeiro with and aircraft carrier if the then elected president resisted the coup, and later with cia "disappearing" dissidents, and actually bombing other countries) a couple of brutal dictatorships.

When cold war ended and people wanted change, left wing parties, some that were guerrilla during the cold war and also had lots of blood on their hands (and they fought for communist victory, not for freedom as people like to believe) decided to use the opportunity to take power themselves and join the establishment.

The left created an organization named foro de São Paulo, and steadily won elections (not necessarily fairly...) and managed to take over almost every single country in South America.

Then, they implemented policies that remember us democratic party policies, not truly left or communist, but a big state, with socialist and neoliberal policies, lots of crony capitalism, with money flowing freely between big corporations and politicians.

Now they are all falling, but we are not sure who will take their place, Argentina had Maurício Macri victory, Brazil is seeing a rising popularity of Jair Bolsonaro (kinda like a brazilian Trump, except he explicitly defended the cold war dictatorship, militarism and torture), other countries are also unstable or trying to open without losing power (Cuba for example... that is one of the foro de São Paulo founding members)

I wrote all this to say that those dismissing the headline because it is only about us and uk are wrong.

-------------

Now about the subject.

I am someone that grew up with a leftward education, but shifted to a reactionary/regressive right wing view in my adulthood. I will write some points as for why, and I am sure a couple of them will fit for most Trump/brexit/Bolsonaro/golden dawn/that rising Japanese nationalist party voters.

Where I started: my dream as a kid was have a completely normal life, wife, kids, "salaryman" job. My political position was that "capitalists" (what now I know are cronism) were hurting people, and that everyone having equal rights and opportunity is great.

1. Women didn't get the right to work, they already had that right, during industrial revolution they were the main workforce...

2. Women instead lost the right to be mothers, they were obliged to work, obliged to compete with men, wanting to be mother, have low status but easier job, or not wanting to earn like men and work like men became a bad thing, enemy of "the cause".

3. Workforce suddenly doubled. And when corporations noticed.

4. In a world with rising automation, sudden workforce doubling is bad idea.

5. Look at the average income of the average person (not family) in us since feminism rise in the 60s. You will see wages are declining.

6. Look for white men in their 35s wage and full employment in us, compare it to counties that had major votes toward Trump.

7. Divorce laws became very strong, including allowing divorce for no reason at all. Most divorces, in the entire world, are initiated by women, here in Brazil women initiate 73% of divorces, most of them with no justification.

8. Look into divorce statistics, amount of divorces.

9. Why a sane man now would marry? you go, marry, and get no rights, only obligations and the risk of a divorce fucking up your life.

10. Divorce is a major cause os suicide among men. Look into us statistics for death rate of white men middle aged over time. Again compare with Trump voter map.

11. Women now don't need men, they are more educated, more employed, die much less on workplace, die less by suicide, die less by violence. sadly women also love to point all that to their boyfriends too.

12. So, you want a career, the fad now is science, computers and engineering, you plan in working until you are "stable" enough to take care of potential kids in a potential divorce. why do you need me then? and who want kids of a "old" woman where the pregnancy is riskier and kids have more "birth defects"?

13. Still women want to fuck, drink, play and get wasted much as men. Awesome, no need to get married to get sex anymore!

14. Women is now pregnant of a random stranger. She said it is "her body", also, pension laws are very unfair... let "her body" then abort or not and care for the kid.

15. Look for how many fatherless kids there are in western world.

16. Look for what percentage of people in prison are fatherless (from both single, and divorced mothers with full custody).

17. So, I am stupid, decided to get educated even if it is pointless because the generation that then were adults told me to do so. Now I have thousands of debt, never got a salaried legal job, don't have a house, pay rent through the nose, don't have a car either.

18. Oh, ecenomy crisis hit! House prices fall but are still unaffordable and I still have too much debt and no credit. rent is still rising despite housing price falling. My landlord owns the entire building and more half of the other buildings in the block and in a couple more city blocks. he kicks me out anyway when my startuo fails.

19. Adult, near my 30s, in debt, still never found my first salaried job. Didn't found yet a girl that wants to be mom or that doesn't mind a bearded dude that live with his mom.

20. Decide to explain how life is going bad, people tell me I have white privilege becauset I am half-white. Being partially white is seemly enough to "owe my soul" to black people, according to a USP student.

21. Being partially white also means my house is fair game for blacks to invade and steal 8 times.

22. Can't complain, I am "privileged".

23. Complain anyway, now I am privileged due to being male/straight/young

24. Decide to discuss politics, get kicked out/banned/driven off before I voice my opinion just because I have white looking skin (nevermind the black person nose on the middle of my face) or for being male.

25. Get embraced by /pol/, trumpists, bolsonarists, men rights, etc...

26. Organizations there full of bigoted batshit crazy racists and gymnophones (people that fear women, usually guys that were mocked for being raped, scammed or had their lives destroyed by women). But they are the only ones willing to discuss my problems.

27. All I wanted was job, wife, kids and normal life. There are no jobs, women don't want to marry and when they do they divorce, and take your kids with them. And doesn't matter where I go, people hate me because I am white straight male. Except when I go near neo Nazi/pol/trumpists/bolsonarists, they like me, even if I am half black. They are actually tolerant...

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#130

Ok, First of all, I feel like "around the world" is stretching it a bit much for the purposes of the article. Secondly, I don't think you can explain the core reasons for this without talking about a specific country, because despite the similarities of even, say, the US and the U.K., the underlying causalities are much different. Thirdly, it is ominous when the author talks about the media consuming educated group,…

Who bailed out the bankers? Oh, that's right – the institution you describe as the "only thing that truly has any reigns around its neck". I'm not surprised your prediction involves a conspiracy theory.
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