Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#151

Post by jccc » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

diamondtrim wrote: post #145

jccc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe now is the wrong time, and Apple is making a mistake. I don’t know. > Patel misses the bigger problem. It’s not enforcement of DRM on audio playback. It’s enforcement of the MFi Program for certifying hardware that uses the Lightning port. Right now any headphone maker in the world can make any headphones they want for the standard jack. Not so with the Lightning port. > Presumably Apple’s Lightning earbuds w…

I don't know what I need John Gruber is. But I'd say those quotes you pulled are pretty intentionally characterizing the potential (and legitimate) issues somehow acceptable. Why would I want Apple to regulate the third party headphones available to me? The headphone market might be a bit too large to track, but having that many choices isn't a problem in my mind. I'm free to research and select from the myriad optio…

"Maybe Apple is making a mistake"? "It's going to suck having to use different headphones"? "Will they ship with headphones -- probably not ... Cough up the extra $29"?

I don't know how anyone could see those comments as favoring Apple, diminishing the problems, or somehow seeing them as acceptable.

I guess if you start out with the assumption that Gruber is an Apple partisan and nothing more, it's easy to read anything you want into his words.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013002

[EDIT: The link above gives a few quick examples of particularly biting criticism against Apple by John Gruber. Not sure what I've said here that's so objectionable -- perhaps one of you could post a reply?]

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#152

Post by rplst8 » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #40

rplst8 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the 3.5 mm audio jack to the floppy drive is ridiculous. The jack has become far, far, more ubiquitous than the floppy drive. Additionally, the things that use the jack are often of higher quality and not disposible like a floppy disk was. And this ignores the fact that the floppy disk/drive was technologically usurped by other removable storage formats. The 3.5 mm jack still delivers the absolute best soun…

> The 3.5 mm jack still delivers the absolute best sound quality compared to the other options available on a smart phone. That's only true because the only headphones that exist for smartphones are headphone jack or Bluetooth. You can build a USB-C or Lightning headset with much higher impedance and use a digital signal to a higher quality DAC than the one built into the phone.

Unlikely. The DACs in most of the available chipsets in phones are far superior to something you could put in a pair of headphones or as a bump in a cable - and would need batteries to run it.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#153

Post by makomk » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #123

dsr_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do that with USB2 as well, but hardly anyone does, because they aren't forced to do so. Most people don't want a higher quality DAC than the one built into the phone. High quality DACs are cheap. If the one in your phone isn't good enough for you, in two years you will get a new phone -- pick one with a better DAC, since now you know that's important to you. In the meantime, your $1000 headphones from four ye…

> You can do that with USB2 as well, but hardly anyone does, because they aren't forced to do so. You can plug a USB2 DAC into your phone? A ton of people who own good headphones for their computer use a USB sound device instead of the motherboard's built-in audio. But today, similarly good headphones for mobile phones do not exist because phones can't drive them. This may not be a priority for a lot of people yet, b…

Yes, you can plug a USB DAC into your phone with most modern Android devices, and I believe the same is true with iPhones. They even support the standard USB audio device class used by many common DACs. People just don't generally do this.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#154

Post by floatrock » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #136

shanemhansen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already use my phone's charging port for charging. I'd find it very annoying if I couldn't charge and listen to music at the same time (without buying some sort of USBC hub).

Is it reasonable to say the vast majority of people simply do not sit next to a charger with the headphones in, more than once a year? I'd think so. I've literally never done it myself. I appreciate there are edge cases and that it's a tricky decision, but getting 5% of a phone's volume/thickness back for a port Further I think the majority of charge & listen usecases are those where dongles aren't horrible. (althoug…

Charging and listening in a car is not at all an edgecase.

Sure, a new car has a USB port that integrates with the media center, but thats only cars purchased in the last few years with the premium media options. A lot of car USB ports are power-only USB.

By far most people I know who drive use an aux cable. Since most music now is streamed, you need to be charging it at the same time or else your battery drains by the end of your trip.

Seems like you're saying "get this $25 dongle or a new $25000 car". Both are shitty and unnecessary options.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#155

Post by mark-r » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #92

shanemhansen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already use my phone's charging port for charging. I'd find it very annoying if I couldn't charge and listen to music at the same time (without buying some sort of USBC hub).

I had a tiny mp3 player for my car, with an audio out and a usb charging port. It still couldn't charge and play at the same time. I was pretty upset after buying a cigarette lighter - USB adapter for it.

The first time I tried playing a device into the car radio, I had a bad experience - it was noisy to the point of being unlistenable. Later I discovered it was because I was charging it at the same time, unplug the charger and all was well.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#156

Post by dsr_ » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #123

dsr_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do that with USB2 as well, but hardly anyone does, because they aren't forced to do so. Most people don't want a higher quality DAC than the one built into the phone. High quality DACs are cheap. If the one in your phone isn't good enough for you, in two years you will get a new phone -- pick one with a better DAC, since now you know that's important to you. In the meantime, your $1000 headphones from four ye…

> You can do that with USB2 as well, but hardly anyone does, because they aren't forced to do so. You can plug a USB2 DAC into your phone? A ton of people who own good headphones for their computer use a USB sound device instead of the motherboard's built-in audio. But today, similarly good headphones for mobile phones do not exist because phones can't drive them. This may not be a priority for a lot of people yet, b…

Yes, you can plug a USB2 DAC into your phone. There's a list of working configs here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/...

and of course lots of discussion.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#157

Post by rawTruthHurts » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #148

vocatus_gate wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a strong distaste for what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery;" the idea that something is worthless simply because it isn't new. Age is meaningless when evaluating technology and its function. It could be 1000 years old or 10; what matters if fulfills the requirements of the relevant use-case in an acceptable manner.

Hammers work great. Always have.

And still...

http://static-media.fxx.com/img/FX_Networks_-_FXX/641/266/Si...

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#158

Post by Grishnakh » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

diamondtrim wrote: post #145

jccc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe now is the wrong time, and Apple is making a mistake. I don’t know. > Patel misses the bigger problem. It’s not enforcement of DRM on audio playback. It’s enforcement of the MFi Program for certifying hardware that uses the Lightning port. Right now any headphone maker in the world can make any headphones they want for the standard jack. Not so with the Lightning port. > Presumably Apple’s Lightning earbuds w…

I don't know what I need John Gruber is. But I'd say those quotes you pulled are pretty intentionally characterizing the potential (and legitimate) issues somehow acceptable. Why would I want Apple to regulate the third party headphones available to me? The headphone market might be a bit too large to track, but having that many choices isn't a problem in my mind. I'm free to research and select from the myriad optio…

>Why would I want Apple to regulate the third party headphones available to me? ... having that many choices isn't a problem in my mind. ... Tell me what advantage is gained by eliminating the other options in be market?

Is it really not obvious what the advantage is? It's a huge advantage: to listen to music on headphones with your shiny new iPhone, you'll have to either buy some shiny new Beats headphones from Apple for $300, or to use non-Apple headphones you'll have to buy some kind of dongle adapter for $29.95. This is a giant advantage for Apple because it'll improve their profits.

The advantage to you is that you can feel warm and fuzzy about being a mindless Apple consumer and having a shiny new iDevice that costs a fortune and only works with other iDevices and forces you to buy new headphones. People like to feel like they're part of an elite in-group.

It's very simple: if you don't like the way Apple does business and treats you as a customer, then don't buy their product. The only reason they're able to get away with this kind of thing (using non-standard connectors is something they've been doing a long time) is because people line up like lemmings to buy their iDevices. If you buy an iPhone with no headphone jack, you really have no right to complain about it being missing; it isn't a surprise at this point.

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#159

Post by falcolas » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #128

falcolas wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd have no problem with USB-C headphones. I would. Can you imagine how terrible the sound would be for 90% of the headphone market? We have all of these manufacturers racing to the bottom of the headphone market, offering crappy speakers and microphones for $50. Now we expect them to also include an amp and DAC? The least expensive, decent headphone USB DAC that I've personally used was already over $70, and it's…

Why does everyone keep saying you need a DAC? That's an option, the other option is simply using the physical connector for an old-school analog audio connection. If the concern is device manufacturers won't support USB-C analog audio that's one thing, but pretending like it isn't the (current) intention to utilize is quite strange to me. This is quite literally changing a round plug to a oval one if implemented prop…

So, correct me if I'm missing something (there's precious little documentation out there), but attempts to standardize support for analog audio over USB C using the sideband pins [1] is still fairly new, and perhaps most importantly, not required by any USB specification but the cable/port specification [2].

From this, I assume that audio accessory support is unlikely to be implemented by all USB chip manufacturers, so attempting to use it as any kind of standard would fall flat on it's face. Whereas any USB C port will support USB communication, making a DAC interface an obvious one.

[1] http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273/intel-proposes-to-use-us... [2] "Accessory Mode support by phones/notebooks aren’t mandatory, so consumers will need to read the fine print on their new electronic device to determine if audio over USB Type-C is supported or not." http://electronicdesign.com/interconnects/usb-type-c-unplugg...

Re: Taking the headphone jack off phones is user-hostile and stupid

#160

Post by floatrock » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

Navarr wrote: post #13

I don't think abandoning the headphone jack is a bad idea. I think abandoning it for lightning is a bad idea. Is apple so desperate for hardware money that there is not a single "open" connector on the iPhone? Why Lightning as opposed to USB-C? Why make it so that people need a completely different set of headphones just for apple devices? (Bluetooth not withstanding)

> Why Lightning as opposed to USB-C?

Lightning is not a D-shaped so you avoid the "oh I put it in upside down, no wait, I was right the first time."

In that respect, it is the superior design. For power and data. For headphones, I want the ability to charge and listen to something at the same time (eg working at my desk, going on long trips in a car that's more than 2 years old, etc)