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GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

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Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#151
post #85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

No, the argument is that humans are tribal creatures. Imagine going off to live in the woods with a handful of other individuals, 100% off the grid and with only the tools you can carry. Inevitably, it wouldn't be long before you start insisting that everyone help out with farming or hunting or repairs or something. It's literally built into our DNA that individuals should contribute some labor to the betterment of t…

> Inevitably, it wouldn't be long before you start insisting that everyone help out with farming or hunting or repairs or something.

Perhaps it would help understanding the other side if you were to look at it not as "insisting that everyone help out" but making trades with other people instead.

You start trading them food in exchange for shelter, etc. Rather than expecting everyone to deserve equal shares of all output.

Certainly this has happened many ways throughout history. The way you're suggesting is only one, and not only that, it's one which eventually falls apart as it scales up.

> Taxes are moral so long as the taxed individuals consent to be part of the entity imposing the taxes, and there are very few individuals throughout history who have actually been willing to opt out of civilization.

I'm not going to argue the "moral" aspect, but I think many people simply want to see the trade benefit of society and don't really care about much else. They're willing to tolerate the taxes for the sole reason that it's the only way for them to get access to wide trade networks currently. That trade benefit doesn't necessarily rely on much of what government provides and could, theoretically at least, operate completely without it, given the opportunity.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#152
post #125
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only call tax avoidance stealing money if your prior assumption is that all money earned belongs to the state as the owner, and you can only have whatever the state gives you by its generosity. That is a pretty big assumption.

That assumption is unnecessary. The only assumption needed is that taxes belong to the state. Property is defined by law.

I don't see what "taxes belong to the state" may mean. Taxes may mean a) some set of laws regulations that create legal framework for some money being paid to the government and b) money that has been paid to the government according to the framework above. The only way you can steal tax money is when you first pay the taxes and then get some of that money back illegally. I'm not sure there are a lot of corporations that do that. A lot of them do it legally, by means of corporate welfare, but while it can be despicable, it does not qualify as theft. Failure to pay taxes usually is illegal, but can not be sensibly defined as theft.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really sad to see all the libertarian viewpoints blanket down voted, mostly without any replies. It really seems like tech has been hit with a wave of pro-big government thinking. My personal theory is that it's younger people who didn't have to deal with the threat of a draft and the baby boomers heavy handed social meddling. The threat of being forced into a war you don't agree with will make you think twice about…

I honestly don't get all the libertarian angst about paying taxes. As a Canadian, I pay a lot of tax. I grumble a bit during tax season - but I am incredibly grateful that I was lucky enough to be born in a prosperous country. A good part of my sucess (education, health care, etc) was paid for by other peoples taxes. So I am quite happy to return the favour. I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and…

So I am quite happy to return the favour.

It's great that you're happy, but you don't have a choice. You'll go to jail if you don't "return favour".

I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and takes care of those who can not take care of themselves.

Simple logic will tell you that if a society is compassionate, it doesn't need force taxation. From dictionary: compassion is a feeling of wanting to help someone who is sick, hungry, in trouble, etc. If you are forced to help, it's not compassion.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really sad to see all the libertarian viewpoints blanket down voted, mostly without any replies. It really seems like tech has been hit with a wave of pro-big government thinking. My personal theory is that it's younger people who didn't have to deal with the threat of a draft and the baby boomers heavy handed social meddling. The threat of being forced into a war you don't agree with will make you think twice about…

I honestly don't get all the libertarian angst about paying taxes. As a Canadian, I pay a lot of tax. I grumble a bit during tax season - but I am incredibly grateful that I was lucky enough to be born in a prosperous country. A good part of my sucess (education, health care, etc) was paid for by other peoples taxes. So I am quite happy to return the favour. I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and…

(I really shouldn't get into this discussion, as it seems that the HN crowd is down-voting everyone that slightly disagrees with the Big Government and is not into Populist Governments - whether Republican or Democrat. Alas, those are just Internet points and I do think the conversation can be productive.)

You live in a developed country that is natural resource-rich, with an established middle class and a somewhat functional government.

So on tax season you see lots of services being provided by Public Government and it seems that the price you are paying is reasonable. I really don't see it as someone "returning the favour", but there is no pointing in arguing there.

What can be argued is how much more effective would this creation and redistribution of the wealth be if it weren't this centralized. For this, most reasonable Libertarians will argue that societies are the most prosperous when there is the minimal amount of interference from the Government.

This is not to say that Governments and Democratic Institutions are not needed. They very much are. Without them, the natural resource-rich countries usually don't even manage to extract the value from the natural resources and transform it in long-lasting wealth. Just look at the Middle East, Venezuela or Brazil.

So, my "Angst" is not about paying taxes, but more about "it keeps growing and growing, how much is enough?" and "are we really better off with all the meddling in general affairs?"

---

I have a private health insurance company here in Germany. Terribly expensive, but so is the public one. The interesting difference is that the private one sent me a check last year because they got some savings and less expenses than expected, so they returning some of my money. Could you imagine anything like that happening with the budget of your country? "We actually managed to build those schools/highways/power plants/sewage treatment plant at a lower cost than expected, here is your share of the savings..."

Was there ANY TIME you saw a career politician speaking anything that resembled "You know what, perhaps society can work out these issues without us having to take a bunch of their resources."? The only place where I see anything like that is Switzerland, which is precisely a country known for being prosperous and NOT natural resource-rich, and with low taxes compared with other countries in the OECD.

You were already born into a rich country. The question is, how can we make existing poorer countries richer? Should a Canadian taxpayer really be funding Bombardier to keep its fat contracts and defend them from competition from Embraer [1]?

> "The libertarian viewpoint seems like "I got mine, so I'm OK."

That is so wrong is even offensive. The viewpoint is more like "I want to get mine, and I want to help the less fortunate with the product of MY work. I don't want to have slacktivists that think that "compassion" is sharing something on the Internet and thinking "someone else has to do something about it".

Compassion can not be mandated or enforced by any Government. Worse, the more we remove individual agency, the worse we all become. We stop thinking about our own actions and start thinking that we are being effective by proxy.

The viewpoint is also "Plenty of people don't get to get their share BECAUSE YOU KEEP THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM". In the USA, most of the Democrats that supported amnesty for undocumented immigrants were the ones benefiting from their low-wage jobs. The Dems always use amnesty as a way to get votes, but they NEVER introduce any serious immigration reform.

[1]: http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/lessons-from-a-nasty-trade-dispute

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By taxing land!!!!!

This will make land ownership harder, which is a regressive measure and will further income inequality. Land and home-ownership represent significant steps towards generational wealth, because when you are paying off a mortgage you own the home while in the case of a lease you own nothing. Literally, this you are advocating economic policy from the Ancien Régime.

[deleted]

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GNU was created on the basis of the GPL. It's not an accident that the "GNU stack had the GPL", it was a plan from the beginning to create a system which people could use in freedom. The accident was that the plan was conceived by Stallman and involved GNU/GPL. What I'm saying is a similar plan with BSD/MIT licenses, if it was initiated by another guy first, would be just as good. In other words that the reason GNU…

What makes you so sure that, had the GNU stack been BSD/MIT licensed and as popular, that Microsoft etc. would not have come out with products featuring the same software but with proprietary extensions and closed licenses?

None of those things makes the original software unavailable to use.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#157
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding directly to the comment about natural resources. Your comment is entirely unrelated to what I said.

How do you think we make roads, energy?

With natural resources. Which have royalties, permit fees, etc. Read what I wrote again.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#158
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding directly to the comment about natural resources. Your comment is entirely unrelated to what I said.

I noticed the discussion on natural resources so I just wanted to point out the obvious - that corporations exist within a society and use a multitude of important "resources" to function at all. That's why it's pretty natural to have corporate taxes too.

> I noticed the discussion on natural resources so I just wanted to point out the obvious

While what you said is certainly obvious, it had nothing to do with what I said.

> That's why it's pretty natural to have corporate taxes too.

It is absolutely idiotic to have corporate taxes. Corporations are nothing more than proxies for the shareholders. All profits are passed to the shareholders. Once they are, those shareholders then have to pay taxes on those profits.

You end up with double taxation.

In recognition of this, we create something called a capital gains tax, which is less than the normal tax rate ... and then tax corporations to compensate for that. Nice.

You end up with a situation where most of the taxes the corporations pay end up being passed to the consumer and the rich get a tax break. Is that what you support?

Get rid of capital gains, tax all income at the same level, and get rid of the corporate tax.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#159
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't get all the libertarian angst about paying taxes. As a Canadian, I pay a lot of tax. I grumble a bit during tax season - but I am incredibly grateful that I was lucky enough to be born in a prosperous country. A good part of my sucess (education, health care, etc) was paid for by other peoples taxes. So I am quite happy to return the favour. I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and…

So I am quite happy to return the favour. It's great that you're happy, but you don't have a choice. You'll go to jail if you don't "return favour". I also want to live in a society that is compassionate and takes care of those who can not take care of themselves. Simple logic will tell you that if a society is compassionate, it doesn't need force taxation. From dictionary: compassion is a feeling of wanting to help…

S/he does have a choice - move to somewhere without taxes (Vanuatu was mentioned earlier as a possibility).

The fact that non-taxing countries aren't over-run with libertarian immigrants (despite being a tropical paradise!) makes me doubt the practicality of the concept.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#160
post #125
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only call tax avoidance stealing money if your prior assumption is that all money earned belongs to the state as the owner, and you can only have whatever the state gives you by its generosity. That is a pretty big assumption.

That assumption is unnecessary. The only assumption needed is that taxes belong to the state. Property is defined by law.

Law used to define some people as property. It's extremely reductive to equate the concept of property with what the law happens to say.
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