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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#151
post #89
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the source now, but I remember reading a while ago that a team of go players is, perhaps contrary to intuition, not significantly better than their strongest individual alone. There's just no useful way to "pool" human thinking power and redistribute it to where it's needed the most – all the players will simultaneously consider the same branches. At best you reduce the risk of making a silly mistake, bu…

Random human beings simply voting fared pretty well in chess though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World Of course, Go has way too many eligible possible moves for random people to vote on, but a large enough group of top pros might be able to do well just by voting.

I think the "Random" part is a bit disingenuous.

Four to five expert chess players suggested moves for the world team. I feel that for any reasonable non-expert it comes down to "choose between these suggested moves" rather than "pick a move". It's also not really random human beings, since the selection of participants is self-selected and therefore much more likely to contain very good chess players.

This is mostly semantics, but anyone who doesn't read your link might get the wrong idea, so I felt like clarifying it a bit.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#152
post #87

I may be glad no one took my bet offer of me paying $19 if AlphaGo won 3/5 vs them paying $1 otherwise... I had a prediction at 90% confidence that nothing would show up before the end of this year that would be capable of beating the top players (though since I first heard about MCTS's success the idea of coupling it with deep learning seemed obvious, so I had an unfortunately non-recorded prediction that if a compa…

AlphaGo has been playing Fan Hui every so often---he's hired as a consultant after all. That greatly polished his skills.

Not sure if any of the games he played are available, though.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be "a computer beating the human" in my opinion. It's just like parents bathing in the success of their offspring. Yes, they can be proud, but no, they didn't achieve the "win" themselves.

If the developers behind AlphaGo did the same calculations with pen and paper as they sat across from the human player, would that be them achieving the win themselves? If so, why does having an automated piece of paper change that? "It's just like parents bathing in the success of their offspring." There is no offspring here. There is a set of calculations, written by some people.

If a parent watches their child win a game, would that be them achieving the win themselves? If so, why does having nine months of creation time and ten years of training time change that?

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#154
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liken Go to a real-time strategy game. Essentially a game of StarCraft 2 can have an infinite set of 'moves'. When an player wins at StarCraft 2, you can argue that he is wise too. Right?

Starcraft 2 is less than a decade old. Go goes back three millenia.

Yuioup said that the winning player can be called wise, not the game it self. I doubt there are any three millenia old Go players around, but I can be wrong.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#155
post #33
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the machine have a physical switch for buzzing in? Maybe that would've given human a little more advantage

Yup, they built a mechanical 'hand' that they connected to the Jeopardy buzzer

Compare http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-buzzer-factor-did-watson-have-...

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#156

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

On a more realistic side note... Professional Go players devote decades in training ever since their youth, giving up normal educations and lots of other more lucrative opportunities for their lives. It's very easy to imagine their frustrations now that their life-time devotion actually means nothing in front of the AI.

It's an upright denial to the way of life they so chose and devoted.

IMHO Google should donate the prize towards Go education and Go organizations instead of some random charities.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#157

A question: Should we take it as "a computer beating a human" or "developers beating a Go player"? I had this discussion with my friends and we have opposite opinions.

Developers beat a Go player in the same way civil engineers carry cars across the San Francisco bay.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people operate on a moving definition of intelligence as "whatever humans can do and machines can't" (thus ruling out AI by definition). If software started writing bestselling novels, it would soon become a "duh that's just what computers do" matter of fact.

That's why task based notions for general intelligence are rubbish. Here is what humans can do: When presented with pretty much any task, specified however poorly, they can design hardware and algorithms that can beat themselve at that task. That's a decent measure of intelligence. A decent measure of creativity is coming up with tasks that make the intelligence part as interesting as possible.

Optimizing compilers do this already and they aren't 'intelligent'. Iirc alpha go is an extension of the same algo that could beat all atari games sight unseen..

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people operate on a moving definition of intelligence as "whatever humans can do and machines can't" (thus ruling out AI by definition). If software started writing bestselling novels, it would soon become a "duh that's just what computers do" matter of fact.

That's why task based notions for general intelligence are rubbish. Here is what humans can do: When presented with pretty much any task, specified however poorly, they can design hardware and algorithms that can beat themselve at that task. That's a decent measure of intelligence. A decent measure of creativity is coming up with tasks that make the intelligence part as interesting as possible.

Optimizing compilers do this already and they aren't 'intelligent'. Iirc alpha go is based on the same algo that could beat all atari games sight unseen.. satisfying the 'novel situation' requirement you set forth..

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people operate on a moving definition of intelligence as "whatever humans can do and machines can't" (thus ruling out AI by definition). If software started writing bestselling novels, it would soon become a "duh that's just what computers do" matter of fact.

That's why task based notions for general intelligence are rubbish. Here is what humans can do: When presented with pretty much any task, specified however poorly, they can design hardware and algorithms that can beat themselve at that task. That's a decent measure of intelligence. A decent measure of creativity is coming up with tasks that make the intelligence part as interesting as possible.

Optimizing compilers do this already and they aren't 'intelligent'. Iirc alpha go is based on the same algo that could beat all atari games sight unseen.. satisfying the 'novel situation' requirement you set forth..
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