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Harper Lee has died

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Re: Harper Lee has died

#151

Post by tspiteri »

cm2012 wrote: post #68
dvt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to be some literature snob, but GRRM can't hold a candle to the profound impact Harper Lee has had on American culture as a whole (not to mention that she won a Pulitzer and a Presidential Freedom Medal). It's almost insulting even bringing up a quote from ASOIAF.

You are in fact being a huge literature snob saying that it's insulting to even compare the two. To Kill a Mockingbird was culture changing because it touched on such an important issue to American culture (race relations, etc.), while also being a well written book grounded in the human spirit. It is not objectively better written than ASOIAF, which has surprising depth and a keen understanding of the human spirit i…

Atticus is one dimensional because he is described through the eyes of his adoring daughter. That's why I like the sequel, because it shows the daughter growing to understand that her father isn't perfect after all.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#152

Post by such_a_casual »

dvt wrote: post #124
LanguageGamer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective? I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone. (Edit: Typo)

> in what sense is that assessment objective? There's no easy way of answering that on this kind of medium (an Internet forum). I took two graduate seminars and wrote several papers on it :) But as a primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the standard of taste': http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Hume/hmMPL23.html In that essay, he attempts to provide some clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of ar…

It's a little absurd to compare a story with essentially 1 thesis and 1 antithesis, to a story full of theses and antitheses where the reader is constantly asking "Which thesis will prevail above which?" and ultimately, "Which thesis will prevail above all?" The authors are doing completely different things. The latter of which is objectively more difficult than the former, the latter of which is much more representative of the world in which we all live.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#153

Post by clock_tower »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #105
clock_tower wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that Gladwell didn't have more sense than that. Does he really think that someone who could fall for Communism could understand changing hearts and minds? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POUM )

Isn't that essentially an ad hominem?

Against which party? I don't trust Orwell's judgement -- fighting for POUM, and making the argument above, weren't the only errors he made -- and I don't think Gladwell should have trusted it either.

(But then, Gladwell wrote a book called _The World is Flat_ in 2000, and it was about free trade, not fundamentalism; he's not exactly someone who I look to as a paragon of good judgement either.)

Re: Harper Lee has died

#154

Post by CaptSpify »

printering wrote: post #32
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

warning spoilers for the book. the tl;dr is: The lawyer isn't really that good a role model. He gets a black man off of a rape charge mostly by attacking the alleged victim's character. He can't bring himself to hate a white man that wants to lynch that same black man, or indeed even Hitler. In the end he conspires with the sheriff to obstruct justice when a nice middle class white man kills a poor white man. In this…

People often miss the obstruction of justice at the end. Lee is brilliant in writing a novel about justice then sliding it past the reader as something we deem acceptable because of circumstance.

I feel like your view presupposes that the goal of the book, is that "justice should be the same, no matter who it's for". But (it's been a long time since I've read it) I feel like it's more about doing what is "right" than what is "legal".

Re: Harper Lee has died

#155

Post by mrob »

rayiner wrote: post #89
douche wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree. I wonder if part of the general illiteracy is a reaction to the dreck that we are forced to read in school. At least in high school English classes you get to read some legitimate literature. In middle school, I remember being subjected to an unending string of aggressively mediocre young-adult historical fiction and science fiction that featured teen-aged girls as protagonists by my all-female Engli…

Tolkien is dreck. There I said it. It took my over a year to read Fellowship of the Ring because of how indescribably boring it is.

The Lord of the Rings was written over the course of 12 years, and IMO Tolkien's writing greatly improved as he gained experience. I almost gave up reading The Fellowship of the Ring because it was so boring, but I'm glad I didn't, because by The Return of the King the writing has become fast paced and exciting.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#156

Post by Donwangugi »

Double_Cast wrote: post #71
haberman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't actually take it as a critique of the novel. To me it makes the novel far deeper, since it portrays a realistic and historically plausible Atticus Finch, in both his virtues and his limitations. It makes the moral of the story more nuanced. And the critique of Atticus Finch I don't even take as some kind of heavy-handed moral judgment. The article's byline isn't "Atticus Finch was a bad person," it's "Atticus…

> Understand what? That her father and the Sheriff have decided to obstruct justice in the name of saving their beloved neighbor the burden of angel-food cake? to which I reply > Pirates are evil? The Marines are righteous? These terms have always changed throughout the course of history! Kids who have never seen peace and kids who have never seen war have different values! Those who stand at the top determine what's…

One Piece and Doflamingo FTW.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#157

Post by dvt »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #131
dvt wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fairly obvious that TKAMB is objectively better than ASOIAF. What next? You'll tell me that Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' isn't objectively better than Dan Brown's 'The Da Vinci Code'? Or that 'The Grapes of Wrath' isn't objectively better than 'Fifty Shades of Grey'? I don't buy your bullshit relativism.

"every rapper is somebody's favorite" Kanye West Your arrogance of somehow equating your subjectivity with objectivity is concerning. How do you define something being objectively better? Popular opinion? Does collective subjective opinion make something objective? Very obviously not. Many people living probably enjoyed the Da Vinci Code more than Divine Comedy. The former likely is more relatable for a lot of people…

Yeah, so again: I don't buy this kind of bullshit relativism. There's strong empirical evidence that certain things (so called subjective things: art, food, literature) are better than other things in the same arena.

As I suggested in my other comment, as I primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the Standard of Taste' and bringing forward some talking points instead of pretending like you're making some kind of profound argument. In other words, what you're saying isn't new. It's also very simplistic, naïve, and (I believe) probably wrong.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#158

Post by username223 »

hullo wrote: post #52
therealdrag0 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bummer that all the popular fantasy is not the best writing. (I do quite enjoy GRRM and Abercrombie.) Are there any, may lesser known, fantasy that is more literary?

Gene Wolfe (Book of the New Sun) is great and a common recommendation along these lines. Ishiguro's The Buried Giant from last year asks to be described as Literary Fiction with a fantasy setting. But chasing down "If you liked Gene Wolfe you might like.." recommendations online would probably be fruitful.

I loved "Remains of the Day" and "Never Let Me Go", but didn't finish "The Buried Giant." The first two aren't fantasy, but IMHO they're much better Ishiguro.

As for "literature-y" fantasy, I'd agree with others here to look at magical realism, e.g. "One Hundred Years of Solitude." But my opinion is probably crap -- some of my fantasy favorites are Tolkien's "Silmarillion" and "Lost Tales," which probably don't qualify as "great literature," but show some amazingly thorough and vivid world-building.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#159

Post by SirensOfTitan »

dvt wrote: post #157
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"every rapper is somebody's favorite" Kanye West Your arrogance of somehow equating your subjectivity with objectivity is concerning. How do you define something being objectively better? Popular opinion? Does collective subjective opinion make something objective? Very obviously not. Many people living probably enjoyed the Da Vinci Code more than Divine Comedy. The former likely is more relatable for a lot of people…

Yeah, so again: I don't buy this kind of bullshit relativism. There's strong empirical evidence that certain things (so called subjective things: art, food, literature) are better than other things in the same arena. As I suggested in my other comment, as I primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the Standard of Taste' and bringing forward some talking points instead of pretending like you're making some kind o…

Again with the snobbery.

You're the only one here who hasn't produced an argument. In all of your other comments you refuse to explain for reasons that your ideas are too complicated. That's the very definition of snobbery. Refute my points instead of emptily pointing out I'm wrong.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#160

Post by Ericson2314 »

haberman wrote: post #13

I loved "To Kill a Mockingbird" so much when I read it as a kid. The moral of the story seemed really obvious. In the last few years I came across this article which blew my mind and changed my perspective about the book's meaning a lot: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/10/the-courthouse-...

There are many things suspect about the "prequel", but at face value it demonstrates Harper had exactly Gladwell's critique of Atticus Finch in mind all along, and the jokes on the rest of us for propping Finch up as a saint.
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