Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#151

Post by MangezBien » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:08 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #148

MangezBien wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forget how much I hate Hacker News sometimes. Thanks for reminding me. > (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time") 18 was ten years ago. I was playing college football, thinking I was going to go pro. I was an idiot, but I got a college degree. I then went on to have a career in a different field, grew up a little and taught myself to code. I've been working in the industry for three…

> Seriously, fuck you for acting like the only way to become a respectable or successful developer is the path you picked. Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also…

Nope. My argument is with you. You are a dick.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#152

Post by sanderjd » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #120

sanderjd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Becoming a nurse or paralegal requires far more certification than software development. It's actually quite amazing how much of an outlier software is in the realm of professional qualification. Accounting is perhaps a more interesting corollary because it doesn't have the built-in awe and long history of respect as the medical and legal professions: perhaps we should have 12-week tax accounting bootcamps! I'm being…

Nobody stops you to do your own book keeping or management accounting/budgeting.

Sure, but there are plenty of accounting tasks that you do need to be certified to be allowed do. Is there an analogue to that for software (in the US)?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#153

Post by itslennysfault » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:16 PM UTC

laveur wrote: post #18

I am skeptical of "Developer Boot Camps". I think they over promise people that they will be skilled developers when they are done. If you go in with a degree in Computer Science or something that teaches you how to program properly sure you will probably be able to get a job. But the idea to take someone that has never been a programmer and make them suitable for a job is laughable to me. It does a disservice to eve…

I taught 3 cohorts of the Web Development Immersive program at General Assembly and most of my students are in the work force and doing great. I don't know about any other programs, but I do know the course that I taught was very effective.

For more info see my other comment on the main thread.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#154

Post by wyclif » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:29 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #148

MangezBien wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forget how much I hate Hacker News sometimes. Thanks for reminding me. > (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time") 18 was ten years ago. I was playing college football, thinking I was going to go pro. I was an idiot, but I got a college degree. I then went on to have a career in a different field, grew up a little and taught myself to code. I've been working in the industry for three…

> Seriously, fuck you for acting like the only way to become a respectable or successful developer is the path you picked. Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also…

I've never seen much evidence that great software engineers always have degrees. In fact, the best ones I know don't have CS degrees.

You're acting as if your example of the 50-something engineer without a degree is starting his career. The more plausible scenario is that his days of needing a degree to prove himself were over decades ago. He's getting jobs based on the knowledge and experience he gained at work, and if he isn't, he's been doing it wrong.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#155

Post by gotchange » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:48 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #101

bko wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Medical Yes. There is plenty of work that can be done by a nurse that doesn't need to be done by a doctor. It seems silly that someone gets sent to school for over a decade to talk to me about whether I can take a drug to bring back the spark in my relationship. > Law Yes. There are plenty of routine legal procedures that should be allowed to be performed by someone that doesn't have to go through the costly proces…

Becoming a nurse or paralegal requires far more certification than software development. It's actually quite amazing how much of an outlier software is in the realm of professional qualification. Accounting is perhaps a more interesting corollary because it doesn't have the built-in awe and long history of respect as the medical and legal professions: perhaps we should have 12-week tax accounting bootcamps! I'm being…

Didn't we try this before with Microsoft (MCSE), Cisco (CCNP) and Oracle certifications and failed miserably?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#156

Post by gotchange » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #148

MangezBien wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forget how much I hate Hacker News sometimes. Thanks for reminding me. > (although "no motivation" sounds worse than "no opportunity at the time") 18 was ten years ago. I was playing college football, thinking I was going to go pro. I was an idiot, but I got a college degree. I then went on to have a career in a different field, grew up a little and taught myself to code. I've been working in the industry for three…

> Seriously, fuck you for acting like the only way to become a respectable or successful developer is the path you picked. Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also…

What about other related and close disciplines to CS like electrical or telecommunications engineering? What do you think of these degrees?

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#157

Post by redbluff » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

My first impulse is like a lot of people to be fairly skeptical. Then I cast my memories back to when I started, and this is how a lot of big companies got their developers.

You took the IBM Data Processing aptitude test and if you did OK, the company inducted you into a trainee programmer role and you were sent on a course and got your PL/I book. You then spent 6 months working with the senior programmer gaining experience and making small patches and then eventually moved into a journeyman status. Basically it was an apprenticeship for coders.

Some stayed at that level, some quit, others would then do a combined CS with Computer Systems Engineering degree and get honours :-). The point is that it gave people a look in at the ground floor - people who gained value for their company who never would have had the chance in a world where the only way to open the door is a degree.

So despite my initial skepticism, I think there can be a place for things like this. In the end it depends how it is used. If it is to get people to pay money for a worthless course, then that is not great. However, if people can get placements as part of the gig, and they are treated effectively as apprentices, then it opens doors to a little more diverse crew than we are getting at the moment, and that's a good thing.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#158

Post by skizm » Thu, Oct 22, 2015, 11:55 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #93

skizm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interviewed at Google. Didn't get the gig, but while I was in the office, it did seem like their engineers were mostly 30+ somethings. I didn't see a lot engineers there that looked like fresh grads. I know more than half the engineers working there interview two or more times before getting an offer. Google, and most larger tech companies, optimize their hiring process to aggressively deny candidates if they aren'…

Why is that is there any verifiable statistics to back this up? There is very little statutory protection for employees in the USA so the actual cost of firing some one isn't that high.

No statistics per say. Programmers are a different animal that say a job like tech support or customer service. Stuff they do, code they write, will stick around in your system for a while, and is non-trivial to remove or fix. If a customer service rep does a bad job you can fire them and going forward is a clean slate. But high turn over for software engineers leads to more technical debt. Lower quality programmers lead to exponentially greater technical debt. Also the cost of hiring someone in terms of dollars is not small.

So think about it from Google's point of view. You take a risk, hire a programmer that doesn't pan out. You fire him after 6 months. That's 6 months of salary and benefits. 6 months of bad code sitting in your code base. 6 months of lower productivity for whoever was on that person's team. And probably another 6 months after that of clean up either ripping out bad code, or worse, leaving passable code that turns bad at a later date causing even more work.

It is better to just take no action on a potentially good candidate and let them try again in a year than it is to take even a small risk on someone who might cause things to snowball.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#159

Post by cfreeman » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 12:10 AM UTC

itslennysfault wrote: post #150

To all the skeptics... I spent a year teaching the web development immersive program at General Assembly. I felt skeptical about the program too, but I always wanted to try teaching so I thought it was worth a go. by the way, I'd recommend it to anyone. It's a great way to take a break from dev work and teach the next generation of developers. It is extremely rewarding to watch people go from next to zero knowledge t…

Which GA did you work at? I have a friend that went to the one in Santa Monica and had a bad experience. Of course, he did eventually get a job as a developer afterwards so I guess it could've been worse. I went to a bootcamp recently and when I was picking my school I remember the reviews for GA varying a lot from location to location.

Re: Google Launches a Developer Boot Camp, Promising Jobs for Graduates

#160

Post by kotojo » Fri, Oct 23, 2015, 12:14 AM UTC

redbluff wrote: post #157

My first impulse is like a lot of people to be fairly skeptical. Then I cast my memories back to when I started, and this is how a lot of big companies got their developers. You took the IBM Data Processing aptitude test and if you did OK, the company inducted you into a trainee programmer role and you were sent on a course and got your PL/I book. You then spent 6 months working with the senior programmer gaining exp…

I actually just went through General Assembly's Web Development Immersive course and finished in July. I'm in a similar situation to that. I learned HTML/CSS/JS, then ruby on rails and MEAN stack.

After I finished I was at the point to know enough to know I don't really know much of anything, and got hired into an apprenticeship program a local company was running, even though the majority of the stack I learned at GA isn't even used. He hired me with the knowledge that I am teachable and willing to learn.

Everyone but one person from our cohort now also has a development job. General Assembly at least does a ton to make sure you are prepared to fight your way into the job market. The only thing I am worried about is what the market will look like for people coming from bootcamps 5 to 10 years down the line. Is this going to start to bring out the people opening ma and pops bootcamp to get a quick buck?