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The Drone Papers

theintercept.com

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Re: The Drone Papers

#151

Post by jacobolus »

themgt wrote: post #146
jsn117 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So comparing a terrible mistake in an active war zone to a purposeful killing of civilians is..what exactly?

The MSF hospital bombing was pretty clearly not a "terrible mistake", but was in fact "purposeful killing of civilians" https://theintercept.com/2015/10/06/why-bombing-kunduz-hospi...

Your summary is not commensurate with the story you linked.

Something can be both a “terrible mistake” and also a violation of international law.

At a high level, it seems unlikely that American military leaders would intend to bomb a hospital, considering the horrible human toll and subsequent political and public relations disaster.

Perhaps the investigation will turn up a more complete story about why the hospital was targeted.

Re: The Drone Papers

#152

Post by knowaveragejoe »

whatafarce wrote: post #10

Utterly disgusting, America conducts clear war crimes, tortures, bombs afghan hospitals, assisinates, all without consequence. I'm sure some idiot will tell me to vote, because that'll change the systemic corruption and nightmare that has taken hold of US power. Did voting in nazi Germany help? No because they were voted in, voting only legitimizes a political system completely captured by insiders and corporate jugg…

Just curious, are you this upset because it's the US or because you genuinely care that those responsible for the problems get away "without consequence"?

Re: The Drone Papers

#153

Post by hguant »

smokeyj wrote: post #144
anigbrowl wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama talks about military issues all the time. He talked about them today, explaining why he's decided not to withdraw troops from Afghanistan for the time being (meaning during his tenure). To expect him to talk about the issues you care most about to the exclusion of all others is simply childish. It's the rule of law. Get rid of due process, and evil is everywhere, or nowhere at all. The US is, by law, engaged in…

> there are other actors with geopolitical interests of their own who would cheerfully move in to fill the resulting vacuum So the argument for perpetual and unwinnable warfare is - if we don't someone else will? You think that's worth the live's of US service members and the inevitable collateral damage inflicted in war zones? I feel like I'm missing part of the picture. Personally, a better way of combating radical…

Boko Haram - death to western education.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Re: The Drone Papers

#154

Post by knowaveragejoe »

themgt wrote: post #147
rhino369 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it obvious that the attack on the hospital wasn't purposeful? Because there is no motive. From the story you quote "It's unclear whether commanders who unleashed the AC-130 gunship on the hospital — killing at least 22 patients and hospital staff — were aware that the site was a hospital or knew about the allegations of possible enemy activity." What is more likely. The US suddenly decided to murder a bunch o…

The motive is actually obvious. MSF treats all patients regardless of what "side" they are on in a conflict. The Afghans/US felt/believed that MSF were treating wounded Taliban and decided to destroy the hospital as an act of reprisal/total war.

Wow, I guess people out there really do think reality is as predictable and simple as a movie plot.

Re: The Drone Papers

#155

Post by pdeuchler »

dragonwriter wrote: post #128
pdeuchler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not at war with anyone so it's impossible for Afghanistan to be a war zone

> The US is not at war with anyone Yes, it is. A Congressionally declared war, even. People tend to get hung up on the mistaken idea that Congress's power to declare war requires the use of magic words in the legislation in which it is exercised (e.g., that it has to use the words "declare" or "war"), but this is not the case. A Congressional "Authorization for the Use of Military Force" is a declaration of war (perh…

Thanks for explaining that, who are we at war against then?

Re: The Drone Papers

#156

Post by ozten »

rhino369 wrote: post #80
korisnik wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it counts any unknown males killed in the strike as enemy. It doesn't use that assumption to do the strike. Imagine for a moment that someone (be it some foreign agency, US police, army or whoever) did the same in America, to American citizens . Would you be outraged by your explanation? "Hey, it's not like they're targetting them specifically. They're just deciding that they were all enemy combatants post-factum .…

If someone was bombing America, the way they were tallying the enemy combatants wouldn't really be a huge concern, to be honest. Let's say the Michigan Militias sack Windsor, Canada. And Canada drops a bomb on their clubhouse. And a bunch of redneck young men are killed. You gotta assume they were part of the militia.

> And a bunch of redneck young men are killed.

The lack of empathy around such a serious topic, is sad.

Re: The Drone Papers

#157

Post by rhino369 »

sangnoir wrote: post #145
rhino369 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Get rid of due process, and evil is everywhere, or nowhere at all. Ok. Bambax why don't you serve Mullah Akhtar Mohammad Mansour a summons to the S.D of NY. I'll send your parents flowers at your funeral. Due process has no process in combat.

> Due process has no process in combat The problem with that attitude is how quickly the term "enemy combatant" will be (or was) redefined to mean 'any person we don't like'

That's just a slippery slope fallacy.

Re: The Drone Papers

#158

Post by anigbrowl »

sangnoir wrote: post #149
anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to at least consider the possibility that other foreign governments are helping out with making this information available because it suits their own interests. The notion that Snowden and Greenwald are plucky little protagonists doing everything on their own against the malign might of the US government is a peculiarly American narrative in that it doesn't consider the possibility that any non-Americans…

This is insane. By your logic: "I'm inclined to at least consider the possibility that the Russians are polluting American's precious bodily fluids because it suits their own interests..."

Leaking supposedly confidential information to the press is hardly a novel technique in espionage, or in any social context for that matter, eg feeding a juicy tale to the village gossip to embarrass a rival. Machiavelli made a systematic study of such techniques centuries ago. What do you find so insane about it?

Re: The Drone Papers

#159

Post by koube »

pdeuchler wrote: post #155
dragonwriter wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is not at war with anyone Yes, it is. A Congressionally declared war, even. People tend to get hung up on the mistaken idea that Congress's power to declare war requires the use of magic words in the legislation in which it is exercised (e.g., that it has to use the words "declare" or "war"), but this is not the case. A Congressional "Authorization for the Use of Military Force" is a declaration of war (perh…

Thanks for explaining that, who are we at war against then?

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists[1]:

"IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

The wording is vague, however it would be most commonly interpreted as a war against Al-Quaeda. It could possibly but improbably be interpreted as a war against anyone.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milit...

Re: The Drone Papers

#160

Post by aidenn0 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #96
rhino369 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motive is the big reason. It's not like America is killing people for fun or some petty economic gain. America is killing people that American believes they are at war with. Hell, America is killing people who believe themselves to be at war with America. But drones only work when you have total air supremacy. Any halfway decent airforce can protect against the huge drones America fires missiles from.

> It's not like America is killing people for (...) some petty economic gain. America is killing people that American believes they are at war with. Hell, America is killing people who believe themselves to be at war with America. Bujać - to my, panowie szlachta... O, my untutored simple friend, mate from this land, or other land! Know that the bells for these alarums kings strike, with girls with ample charms, Know…

Thanks for sharing that; this was written in 1929 for those who were wondering. Also, the regime the criticism was most likely targeted at (Józef Piłsudski who was in power at that point due to a military coup), exercised its military actions at least partly in an attempt to prevent Poland from becoming either Soviet or Prussian, a danger far more existential for the Polish nation-state than terrorism is to the US.
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