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The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

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Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#151

Post by Amezarak »

jmadsen wrote: post #62
mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do use many US public services, though. American expats can still collect Social Security, still get to vote, still have their passport honored and renewed, are able to take advantage of US consular services, etc. They may use these services less, and certainly use a different mix than the average American living in the US, but it's not nothing.

sorry, but that's a silly answer: - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes - My "consular services"? My passport renewed? I cost me $100 or something like that to get my passport renewed, and most of us never go anywhere near our "consular services" - I'm not even sure what they offer, except t…

> - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this

Wrong.

Your Social Security benefits are proportional to what you put in (usually), but you will receive more money than you put in and more money than you money earned over that time period, assuming a normal life expectancy.

The trope that you only get what you put in with SS and Medicare is false.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#152

Post by [deleted] »

jmadsen wrote: post #62
mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do use many US public services, though. American expats can still collect Social Security, still get to vote, still have their passport honored and renewed, are able to take advantage of US consular services, etc. They may use these services less, and certainly use a different mix than the average American living in the US, but it's not nothing.

sorry, but that's a silly answer: - Social Security is collected on what I paid into the system while I was living/working in the US. Not a part of this - Voting is a right - nothing to do with taxes - My "consular services"? My passport renewed? I cost me $100 or something like that to get my passport renewed, and most of us never go anywhere near our "consular services" - I'm not even sure what they offer, except t…

[deleted]

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#153

Post by mike_hearn »

jleyank wrote: post #136
mike_hearn wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statistics on renunciations may not be correct. There are lists of people published who renounced, but every time I read a story about FATCA I keep coming across comments posting by people who claim they gave up their citizenship and never appeared on these lists. The real question is how many people would like to give it up, but can't, because obtaining citizenship where they live is extremely tough and because…

This is Hacker News, right? Way easier to work in SV with that blue passport/screaming chicken than otherwise (except possibly countries such as Canada). Throwing away easy access to the Valley strikes me as a reasonably high price for non-retirees to pay.

There are far more hackers outside of SV than in it, I'd guess.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#154

Post by itsybitsycoder »

gambiting wrote: post #44
rayiner wrote: post #40

Is taxing expats abroad really a problem? First, there is a large baseline exemption and most expats abroad don't pay U.S. taxes. Second, if you're intending to permanently leave the U.S. why should you keep U.S. Citizenship? And if you're intending to come back, is it really unfair to tax you? American citizenship has real benefits, especially if you're rich enough to pay expat taxes. The U.S. protects you and your…

Are you serious? To me, as a person from EU, it seems insane that a country where I haven't actually earned the money would want to tax it in any way or form. That's just ridiculous. You should pay income tax in the country where you made money. And why should I keep citizenship of a country that I moved out of? Because...I want to? Because I feel like a citizen of a country even if I live and make my living somewher…

This doesn't really apply to expats, but income tax isn't really about income, it's about funding all the public services you use. There are problems right now in parts of Canada where wealthy people from other countries are sending their families here and staying to work in their home countries. Their families live in multimillion dollar houses and get hundreds of thousands a year in "child support", but they also consume a lot of public services that they never paid into, like roads, healthcare, schools, and sometimes even welfare. Millionaires are getting welfare! It's insane.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#155

Post by rhino369 »

gambiting wrote: post #44
rayiner wrote: post #40

Is taxing expats abroad really a problem? First, there is a large baseline exemption and most expats abroad don't pay U.S. taxes. Second, if you're intending to permanently leave the U.S. why should you keep U.S. Citizenship? And if you're intending to come back, is it really unfair to tax you? American citizenship has real benefits, especially if you're rich enough to pay expat taxes. The U.S. protects you and your…

Are you serious? To me, as a person from EU, it seems insane that a country where I haven't actually earned the money would want to tax it in any way or form. That's just ridiculous. You should pay income tax in the country where you made money. And why should I keep citizenship of a country that I moved out of? Because...I want to? Because I feel like a citizen of a country even if I live and make my living somewher…

Why? Why should the location of where you make money matter? If I make a million dollars in Indiana, I need to pay taxes on it. If you make it in Hong Kong, you shouldn't?

It's not like federal income is an admission fee. Or a direct tax on something the citizen uses (like a toll road). You benefit just as much from the government building a VA hospital, AIDS research, or a US carrier stationed near Syria.

You don't suddenly stop being an American when you go live somewhere else.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#156

Post by nikdaheratik »

Amezarak wrote: post #150
gambiting wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about America per se - I would feel the same way about any country. I live and work in UK while being a Polish citizen. If Poland now asked me to pay income tax in Poland based off my income in UK, I would be very very upset - I already pay income tax in the UK, so paying it twice sounds absolutely ridiculous. On the most basic level - Poland has absolutely no "right" to any of that money. I would denounce m…

> I already pay income tax in the UK, so paying it twice sounds absolutely ridiculous. You aren't paying twice. That's the point. Assume the US has a 30% tax rate in your bracket. Poland has a 35% rate for that same bracket. Then as an American expat, you would pay 35% in taxes. If Poland had a 25% rate, you'd pay 30% (25 + 5) in taxes. You aren't paying 65% of your income in taxes. You aren't paying twice. > On the…

Except that's not what the law actually states. If you make over a certain threshold you have to pay income tax on it to the U.S. even if the income is from working in an overseas company, paid in a different currency, and stored in a bank in that country and you don't spend even a single minute of your time in the U.S. for that year.

It's not sensible if none of your other coworkers have to worry about this and they're all foreign citizens as well. It's a stupid tax policy that is basically a shakedown.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#157

Post by hysan »

mikeash wrote: post #142
hysan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, came here to say the same thing. Most people who haven't lived abroad for a significant amount of time don't realize the difficulty of trying to vote. In addition to that, the effectiveness of getting your voice heard by your "representatives" (the reps from your last permanent residence in the US) is much more difficult. I used to be able to pick up my phone and get myself heard on issues that I cared about. Li…

Why can't you call your representative while living abroad?

Time difference + cost makes it almost prohibitively difficult in my case.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#158

Post by mikeash »

hysan wrote: post #157
mikeash wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't you call your representative while living abroad?

Time difference + cost makes it almost prohibitively difficult in my case.

Unless you sleep for 16 hours a day, your waking time will overlap with office hours in Washington at some point. Skype can call to the US for very low cost.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#159

Post by gambiting »

rhino369 wrote: post #155
gambiting wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? To me, as a person from EU, it seems insane that a country where I haven't actually earned the money would want to tax it in any way or form. That's just ridiculous. You should pay income tax in the country where you made money. And why should I keep citizenship of a country that I moved out of? Because...I want to? Because I feel like a citizen of a country even if I live and make my living somewher…

Why? Why should the location of where you make money matter? If I make a million dollars in Indiana, I need to pay taxes on it. If you make it in Hong Kong, you shouldn't? It's not like federal income is an admission fee. Or a direct tax on something the citizen uses (like a toll road). You benefit just as much from the government building a VA hospital, AIDS research, or a US carrier stationed near Syria. You don't…

I don't think we will ever agree on this. I think income tax should only be paid in the country where you made the money, because the money comes from a business in that country. You think you should also pay it in the country where you are from, because you should support it(even if that country hasn't done anything to help you earn that money). To me, that sounds insane. To you, it doesn't. I'm not sure we can reach an understanding.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#160

Post by gambiting »

Amezarak wrote: post #150
gambiting wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about America per se - I would feel the same way about any country. I live and work in UK while being a Polish citizen. If Poland now asked me to pay income tax in Poland based off my income in UK, I would be very very upset - I already pay income tax in the UK, so paying it twice sounds absolutely ridiculous. On the most basic level - Poland has absolutely no "right" to any of that money. I would denounce m…

> I already pay income tax in the UK, so paying it twice sounds absolutely ridiculous. You aren't paying twice. That's the point. Assume the US has a 30% tax rate in your bracket. Poland has a 35% rate for that same bracket. Then as an American expat, you would pay 35% in taxes. If Poland had a 25% rate, you'd pay 30% (25 + 5) in taxes. You aren't paying 65% of your income in taxes. You aren't paying twice. > On the…

So basically "you will always pay us a bit of your income,no matter where that income comes from, or you are no longer our citizen"? That's a bit of a mob mentality, and in general, not how countries work. You don't need to pay taxes to be a citizen and enjoy protection of the law, otherwise what would we do with people who really don't earn anything? Kick them out? I'm perfectly happy to pay income tax on the money made in Poland. But I see no reason to pay income tax on the money made elsewhere.

And yeah, I'm not totally sure about your example. I'm quite certain that I would pay 30% of my income in Poland, and then US would want a further 30% of the remaining amount, IRS would not care that I have already paid income tax in Poland.

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