The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic • Hacker News Board

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#31

Post by morsch » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:00 AM UTC

pyvpx wrote: post #15

TillE wrote: post #3

The government's actual "solution" to this problem has been to raise the fee of renouncing citizenship, from $450 to $2,350. No problem for wealthy people who want to avoid tax, but quite a large burden on everyone else. I plan to become a German citizen eventually, because I'm probably going to retire here. But thanks to Germany's disallowance of naturalized dual citizenship and America's tax complexities, that requ…

I keep seeing people repeat this, yet I can't find any information to confirm it. you can become a German citizen and still retain your US citizenship, from everything I've read and everyone I've asked on the matter.

What have you read and who did you ask? The general rule [0][1] is that you cannot keep your existing citizenship, with certain exceptions to that rule specified by law [2]. I don't see any that apply to the US, though, most of them deal with situations where you want to, but for various reasons can't, give up your previous citizenship. It's possible that there's a separate treaty with the US (as permitted in § 12 (3)), but I couldn't find any.

IANAL.

[0] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/rustag/__10.html [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Natural... [2] http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/rustag/__12.html

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#32

Post by mikeash » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:02 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #20

mikeash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with what that quote is saying. Americans living abroad can still vote, and therefore are still represented. It's true that Americans living abroad don't all have the same representatives, since they're represented by the elected officials from where they're registered to vote in the US, but that's a far different thing from saying that they have no representation at all.

If none of the electable choices represent you, it does not matter whether you can vote or not, you are not represented regardless.

That's a completely different issue, though. I live in the US and none of the electable choices represent me!

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#33

Post by ckozlowski » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:02 AM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #16

rlpb wrote: post #8

"By virtue of living abroad, they are second-class citizens, paying onerous tax burdens without representation." This seems pretty ironic to me given the "no taxation without representation" principle.

There's actually a more direct case of this: Washington, DC. Yes, people who live in the capital of the United States have no representation in congress. For years, they've even advertised this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DC_2013.jpg edit: spelling / typo (thanks mikeash)

Mmmhmm. Observer status only.

You can vote for president, but you have no voting congressman.

Cultural tidbit: If you're a resident of the D.C. area, and you live in Southern Maryland or Northern Virginia, be careful not to call yourself a Washingtonian. Residents will kinda frown at that. There's a perception that sometimes residents from the neighboring states will make it seem (unintentionally or not) that they're part of the city itself, without paying the cost of being an actual resident: No representation.

Consider that as you will. I always thought it was yet another little quirk of what is a pretty unique city.

(I'm from Northern Virginia. ;)

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#34

Post by gambiting » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:03 AM UTC

pyvpx wrote: post #15

TillE wrote: post #3

The government's actual "solution" to this problem has been to raise the fee of renouncing citizenship, from $450 to $2,350. No problem for wealthy people who want to avoid tax, but quite a large burden on everyone else. I plan to become a German citizen eventually, because I'm probably going to retire here. But thanks to Germany's disallowance of naturalized dual citizenship and America's tax complexities, that requ…

I keep seeing people repeat this, yet I can't find any information to confirm it. you can become a German citizen and still retain your US citizenship, from everything I've read and everyone I've asked on the matter.

It's probably similar to how most EU countries work - you can have two citizenships,but both of those countries will only recognize their citizenship. So for example - if you had a dual Polish/British citizenship, Poland would only recognize your Polish citizenship. As long as you are in Poland, you are a Polish citizen in the eyes of the law, and you would not be officially treated as a foreigner, or even recignized as one. You could go to the British embassy, but they would be unable to help in regards to Polish law, because Polish law would not recognize your British citizenship. The same works in reverse, if you were in Britain, only your British citizenship would be recognized. However, if you traveled to any other country, you get to pick which citizenship you want to use for official purposes.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#35

Post by dmotto » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:04 AM UTC

They mention at the end of the article the "same country exemption" which is a realistic solution. If you are an American, you can contact your representative and ask them to support it. Here you can find more info from the ACA about FACTA and how it is harmful to Americans abroad: https://americansabroad.org/issues/fatca

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#36

Post by mikeash » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:05 AM UTC

lnanek2 wrote: post #23

mikeash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with what that quote is saying. Americans living abroad can still vote, and therefore are still represented. It's true that Americans living abroad don't all have the same representatives, since they're represented by the elected officials from where they're registered to vote in the US, but that's a far different thing from saying that they have no representation at all.

You seem to be agreeing with the quote. Note it doesn't say no one represents them. It says no single member. Influence spread across all members isn't really going to get much work done for them as if they had their own specific to their problems who considered it their job to represent them and talk about them, etc..

I agree with the first part and disagree with the second part. I agree that no single member of Congress represents these people. (Hard to disagree, since that's just a simple objective fact.) I disagree that this somehow equates to "without representation."

We can do this for any issue which is not related to state/district borders. No single member of Congress represents urban Americans, or rural Americans, or WoW players, or hair stylists. Would we say that they pay taxes without representation? Of course not. Why are expats any different?

I lived abroad for several years and I never felt like I was without representation. I voted and had elected officials the same as my fellow Americans. The degree to which I'm represented in Congress (i.e. nobody is really answerable to me, but I can write to them and get a form letter back if I feel like wasting some time, and once every couple of years I get to pretend like my vote matters) was no different at that time than it is now.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#37

Post by deong » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:05 AM UTC

rlpb wrote: post #8

"By virtue of living abroad, they are second-class citizens, paying onerous tax burdens without representation." This seems pretty ironic to me given the "no taxation without representation" principle.

I'm an expat, and the quoted statement is nonsense. I'm eligible to vote in the US with an absentee ballot, and I have a congressional district based on my last address in the US. Certainly my representative doesn't particularly care, because there aren't that many of us living abroad, but to say I'm therefore without representation is no different than saying I'm without representation as an Atheist (my voting district is in the deep south).

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#38

Post by TimSchumann » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:07 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #4

Related rules have also made holding US accounts more difficult for Americans overseas. I had my retirement accounts frozen by their previous custodian: "Sorry, our regulator doesn't let us deal with Americans overseas." I'm unsure whether that was sincerely "doesn't let us" or meant "would require a paperwork burden we find unacceptable relative to the money you few guys make us" but either way I was given thirty da…

> with $10k of financial engineering the problem goes away for forever

As an American this upsets me greatly to hear. I feel it makes living abroad, especially to families of average means in this country, almost an impossible feat.

I also wonder if only leaving the country for short duration vacation/business contributes to the "We're the best country ever!" mentality here and the "Wow, look at those weirdos over in America" mentality abroad. Or maybe that's just me paying too much attention to the news lately.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#39

Post by masklinn » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:08 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #17

It really doesn't make sense how the US is the only country which insists on taxing their citizens, no matter where they live. It makes American labor less competitive and promotes the insularity of American culture. I'm living abroad and you can definitely see the impact of the US tax system in the background of expats: Americans are severely underrepresented. The same salary, when offered to a British expat and an…

> The same salary, when offered to a British expat and an American, is much less attractive to the American because of the 30+% tax burden imposed.

There's a ~100k foreign income tax exemption and many countries have tax treaties with the US which bypass even that and give a US tax credit corresponding to the already taxed foreign income.

Big issues are there are constraints on the time you can spend in the US (too much holiday there and you're not considered living abroad) and there's the additional burden of caring for and declaring your income to the US, most expats don't need to be involved with the home country aside from grousing about it and renewing their passport.

Re: The Law That Makes U.S. Expats Toxic

#40

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 11:09 AM UTC

Is taxing expats abroad really a problem? First, there is a large baseline exemption and most expats abroad don't pay U.S. taxes. Second, if you're intending to permanently leave the U.S. why should you keep U.S. Citizenship? And if you're intending to come back, is it really unfair to tax you?

American citizenship has real benefits, especially if you're rich enough to pay expat taxes. The U.S. protects you and your property everywhere in the world. My dad was stuck in Yemen when the civil war there broke out. His hotel was shelled. That blue passport was his ticket out on a C-130.