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What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

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Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#141

Post by godzilla82 »

cousin_it wrote: post #45
Delmania wrote: post #16

What the next generation really needs lessons in: - Humility - Empathy - Patience - Self restraint and control - Mindfulness/Awareness - Disappointment - Resilience - Communication - Listening - Learning - Financial independence and literacy - Critical thinking - Problem solving - Self acceptance Then we can focus on what area the person can best contribute in. Not everyone is going to suited for a job in programming…

What the next generation really needs is an economy where everyone can make a decent living with a modest effort, without having to desperately "outcompete" other job seekers. The US had that kind of economy at some point. Since we haven't lost any arcane secrets since then, it must be still achievable today.

You twisted the 'We' from the whole humanity to just 'USA'.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#142

Post by parasubvert »

rpcope1 wrote: post #140
parasubvert wrote: post #6

Why place one body of knowledge in front of the other like this? Everything has to be a competition with some people. It's always been a mistake to believe math is somehow more noble than programming. Best explanation as to why comes from the preface of SICP by Abelson and Sussmann: "Underlying our approach to this subject is our conviction that ``computer science'' is not a science and that its significance has litt…

I think you made a false equivocation there--computer science in relation to programming is like geology in relation to ditch digging. Besides, math literally is at the core of all of our advancements as humans, and is probably going to be the differentiator for people in the future--kind of like degreed versus not degreed today. It is far more universal than programming, and in some respects high level mathematics m…

"I think you made a false equivocation there--computer science in relation to programming is like geology in relation to ditch digging."

That's a very 1960's attitude. Change 'ditch digging' to 'mining', or 'engineering geology', and I'd agree.

"Besides, math literally is at the core of all of our advancements as humans, and is probably going to be the differentiator for people in the future--kind of like degreed versus not degreed today."

This is rather hilarious to me, considering I've taken a BMath program, which has had zero bearing on my work prospects. Helped me to think & learn, yes.

Math is certainly a component of many areas of advancement, and I believe a certain level of mathematical knowledge is required to be a productive knowledge worker. But to single it out as the core of our advancements is false.

For example, the greatest source of our improved economic equality and growth globally is improved productivity in managed industrial processes brought to light in various phases by Henry Ford, Fredrick Taylor, Taiichi Ohno & Sheigo Shingo, and Edwards Deming. Math, particularly statistical analysis, queuing theory, etc. is a part of all of that, but not the core insight, and not even required to understand and apply the approaches, methods.

Similarly, our greatest achievements in understanding macroeconomic systems come from fairly basic models like IS-LM that have stood the test of time. Advanced mathematical models of the economy, like Real Business Cycle theory have tried to fit reality to their maths, with disastrous policy results. Blind faith in advanced maths placed at the heart of the shadow banking system is what almost destroyed the world economy in 2008.

"It is far more universal than programming"

Philosophy is more universal than all of these topics, but I don't necessarily see it as requiring primary importance.

Math is traditionally one of several liberal arts, and not particularly central. There's also language & literature, history, psychology, science (in various sub-forms), art, music. I'd add systems engineering to this list as another key subject area that's been necessary for our advancement. All of which interact with each other, and all of which are are core to our advancement as humans.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#143

Post by parasubvert »

pavedwalden wrote: post #83
cynicalkane wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "decent living" of past generations is still available today, but past generations were poorer than you think they were, particularly for those who don't come from white and privileged backgrounds.

Although almost everyone is better off in material terms than they were two generations ago, I fear that the level of wealth required to live a "comfortable" life may have outpaced that increase. How many hours does a blue collar worker have to put in to live close to a grocery store and good schools? How much time do the working poor spend commuting? If you break your arm, what percentage of your income will be cons…

"How many hours does a blue collar worker have to put in to live close to a grocery store and good schools?"

Depends if they work in a unionized industry.

"If you break your arm, what percentage of your income will be consumed by medical costs?"

In most industrial countries, including the US after the ACA, very little, because of health insurance.

"there's so much economic resentment these days."

That's inequality. When everyone around you is poor, except for a few rich folks you don't see often, it's not as big a deal. When you're constantly exposed to the things you don't/can't have, that can lead to resentment.

This goes back to your first sentence: "Although almost everyone is better off in material terms than they were two generations ago, I fear that the level of wealth required to live a "comfortable" life may have outpaced that increase."

In the US, Median Income peaked in the 1970's and has been flat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...

The poor (in the U.S. anyway) are relatively worse off than they were 2 generations ago - the bottom 50% have seen very little growth in income in 50 years, while the top 50% have grown a lot more. http://www.russellsage.org/sites/all/files/chartbook/Income%...

Not all countries are as bad as the US, particularly Canada or Europe, because they have strong redistribution systems (health and social insurance, etc.). But the trends aren't great.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#144

Post by parasubvert »

sklogic wrote: post #118
jandrewrogers wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All things that exist are mathematical objects and programs. Algorithmic information theory asserts that my cup of coffee is actually a program. While mathematics is important to computer programming, for most practical purposes it is of limited utility unless you are inventing new computer science. Knowing how to use a relational databases correctly requires no formal set theory. Understanding how to build a massive…

What are you talking about? Programming is mathematics. Using a formal language to express solutions to formally defined problems is, by definition, mathematics.

Programming is not mathematics, except perhaps in the most narrow manner of recognizing that a syntactically formal language is likely used somewhere in the bowels of a solution.

However, formal methods and semantically formal languages are rarely used to arrive at the solution. Our mainstream programming languages are difficult to reason about semantically. The formality is mostly relegated to the grammar/syntax. Formal languages and methods might be used in rare cases to validate a solution after it was specified by other means. But those other means are usually a combination of art, engineering and a high-level imperative language.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#145

Post by soccerdave »

parasubvert wrote: post #143
pavedwalden wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although almost everyone is better off in material terms than they were two generations ago, I fear that the level of wealth required to live a "comfortable" life may have outpaced that increase. How many hours does a blue collar worker have to put in to live close to a grocery store and good schools? How much time do the working poor spend commuting? If you break your arm, what percentage of your income will be cons…

"How many hours does a blue collar worker have to put in to live close to a grocery store and good schools?" Depends if they work in a unionized industry. "If you break your arm, what percentage of your income will be consumed by medical costs?" In most industrial countries, including the US after the ACA, very little, because of health insurance. "there's so much economic resentment these days." That's inequality. W…

I am self-employed and pay $6000 a year for high deductible health insurance for my family that has a $5000 deductible. So if my child breaks their arm and that is my only expense that year, then I paid $11,000 for their broken arm. Not cheap by any means. I'm sure lots of people on this forum work for companies that cover their whole cost of insurance and are out of touch with costs, but the "Affordable" Care Act has not made health insurance more affordable.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#146

Post by veddox »

scrollaway wrote: post #47
veddox wrote: post #37

> Today, we can get away with ‘knowing’ how Google works without understanding what a ‘principal eigenvector’ is. Tomorrow, we need to absolutely know that. Part of the advancement of technology is that fewer and fewer people actually understand how stuff works. What percentage of the population has any notion of how a computer works under the hood? How many people understand how our national power grid works? Our se…

I agree to an extent but it's also very scary that some knowledge can become so rare it's more diluted than homeopathic medicine. In a world where very few know how some ubiquitous technology works, it's easy and cheap for some corp or govt to get a monopoly on that knowledge (just hire everyone). And with a monopoly on it, you can modify it to your liking and suddenly we're in a dystopian novel and nobody knows abou…

I'd think there'll always be enough people around who are interested in any given subject to prevent that kind of scenario - although of course there is no way to say for sure.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#147

Post by sklogic »

parasubvert wrote: post #144
sklogic wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Programming is mathematics. Using a formal language to express solutions to formally defined problems is, by definition, mathematics.

Programming is not mathematics, except perhaps in the most narrow manner of recognizing that a syntactically formal language is likely used somewhere in the bowels of a solution. However, formal methods and semantically formal languages are rarely used to arrive at the solution. Our mainstream programming languages are difficult to reason about semantically. The formality is mostly relegated to the grammar/syntax. Fo…

You're recording your solution in a formal language. This is mathematics, by definition.

Any programming language that ever existed is a formal language. No matter how clumsy it is, it is always formal, otherwise it won't be possible to execute it. Even those stochastic languages are formal as well.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#148

Post by parasubvert »

sklogic wrote: post #147
parasubvert wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is not mathematics, except perhaps in the most narrow manner of recognizing that a syntactically formal language is likely used somewhere in the bowels of a solution. However, formal methods and semantically formal languages are rarely used to arrive at the solution. Our mainstream programming languages are difficult to reason about semantically. The formality is mostly relegated to the grammar/syntax. Fo…

You're recording your solution in a formal language. This is mathematics, by definition. Any programming language that ever existed is a formal language. No matter how clumsy it is, it is always formal, otherwise it won't be possible to execute it. Even those stochastic languages are formal as well.

This is the fallacy of composition. (Human beings are mostly made of water. Therefore humans are water. Programming is about arranging numbers (code). Therefore programming is numbers. etc. )

Programming languages involved both syntax and semantics. Formal languages are concerned predominantly with syntax. Most programming languages do not have complete formal semantics grounded in logic. Pieces, sure. Most programming languages are a goulash of various formalisms mixed up with notions of aesthetics and mechanism.

Also, we're confusing code (which I agree is a mathematical construct, among other things), and a practice, programming. Almost no one programming is thinking purely in terms of mathematical logic. They're thinking about aesthetics, engineering constraints, user experience, timelines, procedures, libraries, version control, type systems, etc.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#149

Post by sklogic »

parasubvert wrote: post #148
sklogic wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're recording your solution in a formal language. This is mathematics, by definition. Any programming language that ever existed is a formal language. No matter how clumsy it is, it is always formal, otherwise it won't be possible to execute it. Even those stochastic languages are formal as well.

This is the fallacy of composition. (Human beings are mostly made of water. Therefore humans are water. Programming is about arranging numbers (code). Therefore programming is numbers. etc. ) Programming languages involved both syntax and semantics. Formal languages are concerned predominantly with syntax. Most programming languages do not have complete formal semantics grounded in logic. Pieces, sure. Most programmi…

> Formal languages are concerned predominantly with syntax.

No. I'm using a broader notion of a formal language. Algebra, for example, is a formal language. One of the ways of defining a formal language is: "anything that can be strictly defined as a term rewriting system", and all the programming languages are fitting.

> Most programming languages do not have complete formal semantics grounded in logic.

They always do, otherwise their execution won't be deterministic.

A programming language implementation + semantics of the hardware and runtime library = semantics of a formal language.

> They're thinking about aesthetics, engineering constraints, user experience, timelines, procedures, libraries, version control, type systems, etc.

This is exactly how problems are solved in mathematics too.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#150

Post by infinite8s »

soccerdave wrote: post #145
parasubvert wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How many hours does a blue collar worker have to put in to live close to a grocery store and good schools?" Depends if they work in a unionized industry. "If you break your arm, what percentage of your income will be consumed by medical costs?" In most industrial countries, including the US after the ACA, very little, because of health insurance. "there's so much economic resentment these days." That's inequality. W…

I am self-employed and pay $6000 a year for high deductible health insurance for my family that has a $5000 deductible. So if my child breaks their arm and that is my only expense that year, then I paid $11,000 for their broken arm. Not cheap by any means. I'm sure lots of people on this forum work for companies that cover their whole cost of insurance and are out of touch with costs, but the "Affordable" Care Act ha…

Insurance doesn't work that way. If you had a heart condition which required operation (so maybe 100k) you would also have paid 11k. You need to average over all expected outcomes to calculate whether it was affordable or expensive. In other countries (Europe and Canada) that 11k comes out as taxes instead of direct and indirect insurance costs.
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