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The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

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Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#141

Post by Karunamon »

na85 wrote: post #60
matthewmacleod wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Reddit's shown us anything of the sort, really. I expect people have a habit of reading too much into this kind of thing.

Look, when everyone gets to be king of their own sandcastle, you obviously end up with a larger number of smaller castles. But the not-so-obvious consequence is that because people implicitly know they can just start making their own sand castle, it foments divisiveness because all of a sudden everyone "knows" they can do a better job moderating/curating/whatever, and they're sick of seeing $content_type in what they…

I think the difference between Reddit and 8chan, the difference, is the lack of a voting system. Consider that Reddit, after any post has three more downvotes than upvotes (score of -2), by default, that post will be hidden. Most Reddit users browse not logged in (according to their own stats), and of those that are, most have this "threshold" option still turned on, and it leads to more echo chambering since views that are unpopular will simply go unseen. Another plague is that people will go through your comment history and attempt to use that to discredit you.

On any *chan style imageboard, this isn't a thing. You can hide posts that you don't like, but by design, all posts are equal. If someone posts something you don't like, your options are to ignore it or respond to it, but it's there, in the open, for all to see.

This, I think, is the better system, combined with the default anonymous posting style of these boards that completely ensures that any post is judged on its merits, rather than the identity of its poster. That's not say that board culture doesn't exist, it does, but it exists purely socially, rather than being a feature of the software. The things I've seen happening on YouTube and G+ and Facebook have convinced me that existence of a coherent identity has zero impact on people's behavior.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#142

Post by Torgo »

maresca wrote: post #113

I went to Startup School in New York last year and saw moot there. While outside between presentations, someone in the crowd called out "Chris, Chris Poole!" and some other memes at him. He seemed really put off by it and hightailed it out of there. I'd imagine he gets that often and could understand how that could be draining.

I would add that in the last couple years, the mood has gone from "4chan is a toilet" to "4chan is hurting people" to "CHRIS POOLE, OWNER OF 4CHAN, MUST BE PERSONALLY HELD ACCOUNTABLE." The tide has turned, he is probably being ostracized in social settings, and he is getting out while the getting's good.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#143

Post by headwayoldest »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #131
headwayoldest wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Members of the anti-GG and social justice crowds have carried out similarly stupid and counterproductive acts of aggression and bullying. It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. >IMHO you should be placing more of the blame on our fucked up militarized police system that lets bored teenagers…

>It's not directly relevant to the topic, but if you really believe this you should better educate yourself with regard to what has been done in the name of gamergate. No, really, gamergate supporters like Milo Yiannopoulos have also been doxxed, sent death threats to, sent threatening packages to, had their family members harassed, etc. The social justice movement contains honest supporters of diversity in tech, and…

>No, really, gamergate supporters like Milo Yiannopoulos have also been doxxed

I don't think someone searching his twitter feed for a phone number he himself posted for self promotion falls under the same category as taking selfies outside someone's place of work.

>The drunk driving analogy is stupid because the benefits that cars provide to society outweigh the negatives of drunk drivers, but there is no good reason for an anonymous tip to warrant armed soldiers breaking into your house in the night, usually making no indication that they are policemen and not just thugs and robbers, and shooting you dead if you so much as move the wrong way in your confusion. It's a profoundly dangerous and easy to abuse system, and it needs to change.

You're right, the system does need to change. And I would even agree that is linked to the issues of online harassment. However, that is not the cause of online harassment, nor would improvements to police reaction policies put a stop to doxing.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#144

Post by BryantD »

Kalium wrote: post #108
BryantD wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking why you think freedom of speech is a guiding principle and a human right. I get that and I agree that freedom of speech is incredibly important. I have spent a lot of mental time over the last few years thinking about that belief in relationship to my feeling that it's bad to cause pain. This is not a simple problem. However, it's also irrelevant to my question: why do you think that the admin of 8chan…

> I have spent a lot of mental time over the last few years thinking about that belief in relationship to my feeling that it's bad to cause pain. I submit that the two are not in conflict. The first is a principle that all people should have this right. The second is moral guidance on the subjective application of that right. People can use their rights for good or for ill. The key thing is that people have that righ…

That is a poor guess. I think it's complex precisely because I don't think everyone should be forced to live by the same principles, and because I recognize that some principles conflict. People have been arguing about value pluralism for a while now, so I feel like I'm in pretty good company here.

If free speech wasn't fundamentally important to me, I wouldn't think it was a complex problem, I'd be happy to limit speech.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#145

Post by malbiniak »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #82
wpietri wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is because 4chan was being used as an organizing nexus for a bunch of people widely seen as abusive and misogynist, and he just no longer wanted the headache. Years ago I worked on bianca.com (early community site; founded 1994, Webby 1997, closed in the dot-com bust), which had a similar unfettered-free-speech aspect to it. I feel a lot of sympathy here. Committing to publishing everything is one of those p…

That's fair, but then he shouldn't have been surprised when his site started hemorrhaging users who were there entirely for the freedom of speech they enjoyed. 8chan will probably last much longer than 4chan precisely because Fredrick refuses to make those judgement calls about what is and isn't acceptable. He doesn't need to bear a heavy conscience about what kind of speech he is allowing, he just follows the law to…

Within the first minute of his talk at XOXO back in 2012, he mentioned 4chan being about anonymity and ephemerality, not a blanket endorsement for freedom of all type of speech.

If you haven't heard it, it's worth a listen (20:59).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxRNRi7bOSI

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#146

Post by watwut »

BryantD wrote: post #62
sroerick wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion of Gamergate has been taken down in some form from every major communications platform other than (to my limited knowledge) 8chan and twitter. Facebook, Reddit, YouTube and 4chan have all removed content related to GamerGate

I would state this slightly differently: discussion considered to be abusive by the moderators/admins of their sites has been taken down in some form from every major communications platform. In some cases, that discussion involves GamerGate. It is possible to construct a conspiracy theory in which GamerGate is being censored, but given the existence of (say) http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ , it's hard for me…

Not really. Perfectly polite non-offensive discussions of GamerGate and related topics were removed. Also completely polite dissent in comments from under multiple articles (on guardian and verge for example). KotakuInAction was only reddit thread allowed to stay - and was not allowed to mention gamergate initially.

Deletion comment of widely popular reviewer who screen-capped it and then tweeted to his followers was head scratching moment. Same happened to british journalist who was harassed in relation to the controversy. She commented under guardian article and her comment was deleted. She was kinda angry afterwards.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#148

Post by astrange »

MrDom wrote: post #139
IndianAstronaut wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did create that cesspit and allowed it to thrive and attract the dredges of society. Not until 6 or 7 years into the site did he decide to crack down on the cp posted there. He definitely deserves ridicule.

I do think he deserves ridicule, but not for that. He stood up for the ideals of free, anonymous speech. He believed in it. But he eventually buckled under the weight of it. He was a hero for holding out as long as he did, but all heroes fall. What he's become now is worthy of ridicule.

Interested readers should note that

1. it's impossible to satisfy this poster and their parent at the same time.

2. but both of them will hate you either way.

This leads to an important customer service technique I've learned, which is that if you slightly inconvenience the most difficult people they'll just leave and you'll be left with less demanding customers who will actually appreciate you.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#149

Post by jsmthrowaway »

BryantD wrote: post #62
sroerick wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion of Gamergate has been taken down in some form from every major communications platform other than (to my limited knowledge) 8chan and twitter. Facebook, Reddit, YouTube and 4chan have all removed content related to GamerGate

I would state this slightly differently: discussion considered to be abusive by the moderators/admins of their sites has been taken down in some form from every major communications platform. In some cases, that discussion involves GamerGate. It is possible to construct a conspiracy theory in which GamerGate is being censored, but given the existence of (say) http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ , it's hard for me…

In no way am I stating an opinion, just adding something I observed to your comment:

For about a day, comments anywhere on Reddit matching `[zZ]o[eë] ?[qQ]uinn` resulted in what appeared to be an automatic global shadowban. I verified this by asking "who is Zoe Quinn?" on a throwaway. When people say totally nonpermitted discussion they might mean something like that.

Again, no opinion, just context.

Re: The Next Chapter – moot retires from 4chan

#150

Post by probably_wrong »

yarrel wrote: post #103
hatu wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I could tell it quickly turned to a misogynist witch hunt with heavy doxxing and harassment and not a lot of actual substance

No that's how it started. Get the story right, people!

Maybe you are just trolling, or maybe you actually believe in what you say. I know I used to believe the "it's above games journalism" point of view, as I found it had plenty of merit.

In case it's the second one, I have to tell you something: it really isn't about truth in games journalism. I know a lot of people think it is, but it truly isn't. Gamergate's sword are its misogynistic views and its coordinated attacks, while it's shield is the "games journalism" angle. If you truly believe you can separate one from the other, trust me, you can't.

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