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India’s Downward Spiral

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Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#141

Post by cubancigar11 »

infinity0 wrote: post #137
cubancigar11 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. If you think supreme court judgement is 'one source' then you cannot be argued with. And complaining about 'long paragraph'... hmm... I think you are just angry and without argument. Regarding second paragraph, the citation is not handy right now, but this is what Indian feminists actually write. You know, the ones actually involved in drafting government policies. There was a similar article by NCW I…

No, you cannot make an empty argument and then say I have no argument. Quoting the supreme court randomly, does not argue anything. You fail to explain why the supreme court's quote is relevant to anything you said, or anything I said for that matter. You will need to back up your assertions about "Indian feminists" with actual real data; otherwise it is just an inappropriate generalisation.

The supreme court judgement is not random, it is a judgement from SUPREME COURT which proves that even the most respected institution of India knows that there is hardly any problem of dowry. If, instead, I would have just said that, then you would have given me citations from news articles showing 'how bad the problem in dowry is', and then I would have pasted this same judgement to show you the "real data". I posted it to cut short that argument. There is obviously a difference between our perception of self-infallibility and my attempt to cut short that argument has failed. So why don't you show me some "real data" to prove that dowry is a major problem in India against which there is an 'ongoing campaign', because I have shown you already that there is a 'ongoing campaign' in India to match reality with fictional bullshit (that most probably you learned about India when you were a kid) by curbing down the abuse of the exactly same rhetorical argument you presented in your original post. Seriously man, Dowry Prohibition Act was passed in 1969. You are 50 years late to the party. Now we are passing laws to water it down.

Regarding the second paragraph, that whole argument comes from Madhu Kishwar but because I don't have the exact url I will leave it at that.

As per the effects of feminist media upon Indian villages (where, as Gandhi said, real India lives), I would ask you to go through these: 1. http://fathersforlife.org/pizzey/DV_is_not_a_gender_issue.ht... 2. http://www.odsg.org/Said_Edward%281977%29_Orientalism.pdf 3. http://www.rediff.com/news/special/ls-election-madhu-kishwar...

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#142

Post by infinity0 »

cubancigar11 wrote: post #141
infinity0 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you cannot make an empty argument and then say I have no argument. Quoting the supreme court randomly, does not argue anything. You fail to explain why the supreme court's quote is relevant to anything you said, or anything I said for that matter. You will need to back up your assertions about "Indian feminists" with actual real data; otherwise it is just an inappropriate generalisation.

The supreme court judgement is not random, it is a judgement from SUPREME COURT which proves that even the most respected institution of India knows that there is hardly any problem of dowry. If, instead, I would have just said that , then you would have given me citations from news articles showing 'how bad the problem in dowry is', and then I would have pasted this same judgement to show you the "real data". I post…

Thanks for the more clear explanation. However, just because a law is abused by some women, does not mean "there is hardly any problem of dowry" - you are making a logical jump here. Also, the supreme court isn't important here; they're just quoting statistics from the National Crime Records Bureau. (Does 1,97,762 mean 197k or are we a missing a number here?) Last time I heard there were about 9k dowry-related deaths (also from the NCRB); you'd expect the incidence of non-fatal violence would be higher, but I don't know numbers for that. Regarding the "ongoing campaign" I saw things a while back, possibly it was "Say No To Dowry", and there are others just from a quick web search. I am not a researcher in this area, and perhaps western media is more biased around this topic. But you're not making any good arguments against it.

Regarding your links about feminism, [1] is not relevant to India, [2] is you being very lazy - I'm not going to read through 400 pages just to entertain your whims, you will need to quote specific extracts from it, and [3] is fairly neutral regarding feminists.

You also seem to getting offended personally that I am pointing out problems with your country. I don't know what to do, other than point out that this reaction is not rational, and that I don't mean personal offence.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#145

Post by cubancigar11 »

infinity0 wrote: post #142
cubancigar11 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supreme court judgement is not random, it is a judgement from SUPREME COURT which proves that even the most respected institution of India knows that there is hardly any problem of dowry. If, instead, I would have just said that , then you would have given me citations from news articles showing 'how bad the problem in dowry is', and then I would have pasted this same judgement to show you the "real data". I post…

Thanks for the more clear explanation. However, just because a law is abused by some women, does not mean "there is hardly any problem of dowry" - you are making a logical jump here. Also, the supreme court isn't important here; they're just quoting statistics from the National Crime Records Bureau. (Does 1,97,762 mean 197k or are we a missing a number here?) Last time I heard there were about 9k dowry-related deaths…

No problem. India is a shit country and if it were possible for me to give up my citizenship I would have done it without second thought. I have no issues with people pointing out problems, but problems of India are not reported in news unless they happen to be about cultural differences. [2] is not an argument, it is just to give you a direction if you want to find out real structural problems in all colonized countries and the sheer depth of it all. Read it at your own leisure. Orientalism by E. Said is phenomenal book that changed sociology studies. It is a very good read and even first 50-60 pages are enough to make you think.

Regarding dowry related death, any death of wife within 7 years of marriage is reported as dowry related death. Why? So police-lawyer-NCW nexus can make money out of it by harassing husband. A lot of times even women's family jumps in to make money. That is the level of discrimination women face. For example, the dowry harassment lawsuit (498a IPC) is non-cognizable, which means once filed, it cannot be taken back. Then it is Husband vs. The State. The moment a death occurs police and lawyers will convince family members to file 498a. Then they can simply use it to extort lakhs. My friend himself paid 10 lakhs. Is NCW interested in that data? No. It actively hides the real data, instead relying on vague statistics like 'how many dowry related deaths have been reported to police' and not 'how many dowry related deaths actually happened'. And why not? NCW is run by politicians and wives of corrupt IPS officers.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#146

Post by kragen »

bipin-nag wrote: post #58
mkal_tsr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be downvoted?

See my above reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8486513 . I would reiterate that the parent was just sensational, and it is a far cry from the surveillance done by U.S.

May I suggest that you stop using the internet until you learn to respect and appreciate the hackers who built it? You should be ashamed of your ignorance. You are launching vicious attacks on hackers, claiming we aren't human-rights activists, that we are criminals, that we are selfish, and that we aren't known for our humanitarian efforts. None of these things are true.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#147

Post by eskimo87 »

these issues do not get noticed in India because for majority of Indians the attention to and addressing fundamental problems (food, shelter, health) are of utmost importance for time being.

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#148

Post by known »

pycassa wrote: post #44

Also India ranks, 140 on world press freedom index 2014, if you move 7 places ahead you will be in Putin land. It became worse in the last 10 years, 120 to 140. http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

Decline of the West.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West#Democrac...

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#149

Post by known »

monsterix wrote: post #6
leephillips wrote: post #3

This is an unsurprising extension into the electronic realm of India's notoriously weak support of free expression. They were the first country to ban the Satanic Verses ; its import, I believe, is still illegal there. Citizens are routinely persecuted under laws that literally prohibit hurting people's religious feelings (recently invoked against a researcher who exposed another fake Catholic miracle[0]). India is t…

> India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy. Second you on that one! I lived in various parts of rural India for a little over 12 years, and the deeper I went, the more I saw people there actively voting in droves. And the harder their life and generally poor state of affairs!

Democracy must go beyond elections: Kapil Sibal, Former Law Minister in India

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-12-07/news...

Re: India’s Downward Spiral

#150

Post by known »

sharoonthomas wrote: post #10
monsterix wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India is the most prominent example of a country with plenty of voting but no democracy. Second you on that one! I lived in various parts of rural India for a little over 12 years, and the deeper I went, the more I saw people there actively voting in droves. And the harder their life and generally poor state of affairs!

+1 sadly democracy in India only has the voting part implemented fairly well. It's a monarch until the next election. Even the voting is neck deep in corruption [1] [1] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/cash-for-vo...

Indian voters are suffering from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
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