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Who Gets to Graduate?

nytimes.com

141–149 of 149 posts

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#141
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support…

> in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Might as well just call it spoilt brat syndrome . They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out (intellectually a…

>They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out

This is the point - basic education and high schools aren't challenging students enough to prepare them to higher ed. If in addition to that you also don't have adults with higher education in your life to use as a reference, it makes it pretty hard to realize that you're not actually that good. Who wants to criticize themselves when all they hear is praise?

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#142
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So apparently getting a certain grade on a standardized test makes you smart? Having never met this girl, none of us have any idea if she's smart, but she's certainly not dumb for a score she got on a standardized test when she was like 16...

You do realize the entire idea of a standardized test is to give you information about someone you've never met? The ACT and SAT are well-developed intelligence tests.

That's the idea, but the idea that it's even possible to test intelligence with a multiple choice test is fallacious. Intelligence is simply too difficult to define. The fine tuning on these sorts of tests simply betrays a false sense of confidence of their usefulness in measuring intelligence.

I will concede that scores on the ACT or SAT are correlated with intelligence. But like most tests, you can improve your score with practice and study. If I can get a better score after preparing for the test, it doesn't measure intelligence, at least not directly.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the entire idea of a standardized test is to give you information about someone you've never met? The ACT and SAT are well-developed intelligence tests.

That's the idea, but the idea that it's even possible to test intelligence with a multiple choice test is fallacious. Intelligence is simply too difficult to define. The fine tuning on these sorts of tests simply betrays a false sense of confidence of their usefulness in measuring intelligence. I will concede that scores on the ACT or SAT are correlated with intelligence. But like most tests, you can improve your sco…

http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparation-and-sa...

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the idea, but the idea that it's even possible to test intelligence with a multiple choice test is fallacious. Intelligence is simply too difficult to define. The fine tuning on these sorts of tests simply betrays a false sense of confidence of their usefulness in measuring intelligence. I will concede that scores on the ACT or SAT are correlated with intelligence. But like most tests, you can improve your sco…

http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/02/test-preparation-and-sa...

Anecdotally, I have seen ACT scores improve with work and time. Most people at my high school took the ACT not the SAT, so possibly the effect is not the same. But, as I'm sure you would agree, it's a terrible argument to say a given study must be wrong because I observed differently in a unscientific sample from my own personal life. I will concede that changing your score is difficult, and possibly much more so than my experience shows.

That still does not change my central assertion that the ACT or the SAT are not good tests of intelligence. Or that IQ tests are not good tests of intelligence. I don't deny that high scoring test takers of such tests are usually intelligent but as the famous line goes, correlation does not imply causation.

Intelligence is a very tricky thing to define. People typically try to quantify intelligence as one's ability to solve tricky problems, solve problems quickly, retain hordes of knowledge, etc; but these things leave out rather important aspects of intelligence such as creativity, so-called "emotional intelligence", and the value of personal experiences. This is not an exhaustive list of things that are missed by these tests. Suggested reading here is Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book Outliers.

I'm moving the goal posts a bit on this conversation, but an even broader point to make about intelligence is that if you have a certain amount (what ever that means, again I'm not claiming that you can measure this), magically gaining more intelligence would have relatively little impact on your ability to have a successful life. It is my opinion that hard work, social connections, and even luck are more important than intelligence. Again, anecdotally, I have seen brilliant friends struggle to gain any sort of measure of success in life while the friends I judged as less intelligent are blowing them out of the water. Successful people are intelligent people, but they are rarely geniuses.

And this is where my argument begins to loop back around to the point the original article makes: Outcomes improve for people from poor and underprivileged backgrounds when they are integrated into a social groups with people who make them feel like they belong in higher education and encourage them to learn from bad test scores or rough semesters. So what does it matter if this girl has only slightly above average intelligence (as measured by tests that are flawed indicators of intelligence anyway)? If participating in these programs helps her become a productive member of society and become successful against her personal goals, isn't that a huge win?

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#145
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "smart". The ACT is taken by college aspiring high schoolers. If 22 is top 10% of her whole school, she had some sort of personal cleverness to overcome her near-completely unintellectual community.

She's not "smart" relative to her classmates. http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/whyut/profile/scores Average ACT is 28. 25th percentile is 25. She got a 22.

This comparison is to the wrong cohort. She was among the top of her high school cohort. That's the point -- among a pool of people in the community he was raised in, she rose above the pack, didn't come through a culture the tests are optimized to select for.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be more than 'barely above average' on the ACT.

I see. So this whole "smart" concept can be reduced to a simple quiz. Tell that to my brother, who is bad at test taking, and almost failed high school. He now has a doctorate and makes a 3 figure salary.

What does he have a doctorate in? A doctorate also requires a comprehensive test.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#147
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be more than 'barely above average' on the ACT.

I got an 1160 on the SAT. How would you classify me on the smart/not-smart continuum? I also got a 680 on the math sat 2, a 670 in the english sat 2, and a 4 on both the ap us and ap european history exams, and have a masters degree. Now how would you classify me?

non-technical

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#148
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got an 1160 on the SAT. How would you classify me on the smart/not-smart continuum? I also got a 680 on the math sat 2, a 670 in the english sat 2, and a 4 on both the ap us and ap european history exams, and have a masters degree. Now how would you classify me?

non-technical

As in poor analytical thinking non-technical? Edit: I just re-read my previous post and your response and I realize that I left out my masters degree (and bachelors) were in computer science. I'm guessing you inferred from the English and history tests that I am non-technical. My fault for leaving out the subject of my degrees.

I don't know. I've generally been one of the top engineers on every dev team I've been on, was the first engineering hire of one startup and am the director of engineering for the current one.

Is classify myself as an above average engineer. Not a superstar, but solid and I get things done and done well.

I basically see no correlation between my SAT score and my ability and success. It's hard for me to look at only the SAT scores of others and say much of anything about them.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. So this whole "smart" concept can be reduced to a simple quiz. Tell that to my brother, who is bad at test taking, and almost failed high school. He now has a doctorate and makes a 3 figure salary.

What does he have a doctorate in? A doctorate also requires a comprehensive test.

Microbiology, If I'm not mistaken.
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