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Who Gets to Graduate?

nytimes.com

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Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#111

Post by thaumasiotes »

logicallee wrote: post #109
thaumasiotes wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is talking about supporting students who are admitted to a flagship school in their affirmative-action program despite being below the 25th percentile for students at that school. It specifically calls them out as being in the bottom quartile. It lists the human-interest protagonist's appallingly low standardized test scores. What more do you want here? According to http://www.parchment.com/c/college/coll…

It's an endemic problem - I heard that even at Ivy league schools nearly a quarter of the students are now below the 25th percentile.

We like to think the Ivies have a narrower range, though. This girl was admitted under UT's explicit policy of admitting unqualified students as long as they come from awful schools. That sort of thing can cause quite a large gap between, say, the 25th percentile student and the modal student.

update: for reference:

UT Austin 25th-75th percentile SAT math scores: 590 - 710

Cal Tech 25th-75th percentile SAT math scores: 770 - 800

How significant do you think it is that a quarter of Cal Tech students are below the 25th percentile? How far below do you think they range?

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#112

Post by logicallee »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #111
logicallee wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an endemic problem - I heard that even at Ivy league schools nearly a quarter of the students are now below the 25th percentile.

We like to think the Ivies have a narrower range, though. This girl was admitted under UT's explicit policy of admitting unqualified students as long as they come from awful schools. That sort of thing can cause quite a large gap between, say, the 25th percentile student and the modal student. update: for reference: UT Austin 25th-75th percentile SAT math scores: 590 - 710 Cal Tech 25th-75th percentile SAT math score…

this follow-up is better. But you're asking me to guess!

>How significant do you think it is that a quarter of Cal Tech students are below the 25th percentile? How far below do you think they range?

I don't know.

It would help if your figures didn't cut out at the bottom-quarter mark, i.e. if you gave some figures on the lowest SAT math score (and what about verbal?) admitted to these institutions, or some other indication rather than asking what we 'like to think' about the range or having me guess :)

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the way you expressed it, "despite being below the 25th percentile for students at that school" and "It specifically calls them out as being in the bottom quartile" in your original comment is probably not a great way to show your case. Your range comment is much better, but stops short of indicating what the full range is or where this student falls.

Basically, I am directly saying that being in the bottom quartile is not itself an indication of sub-standard performance - at any school. Because nearly a quarter of students will be below the bottom quartile - at every school.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#113

Post by joshvm »

x0x0 wrote: post #83
js2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bummer: Vanessa called home, looking for reassurance. Her mother had always been so supportive, but now she sounded doubtful about whether Vanessa was really qualified to succeed at an elite school like the University of Texas. “Maybe you just weren’t meant to be there,” she said. “Maybe we should have sent you to a junior college first.” After reading the whole article, this is what really stuck with me. I…

Her mother was right. Maybe weak students should -- like in CA -- go to a two year college that is a stepping stone between high school and college, with more oversight and structure; finish their gen eds; and transfer. The diploma says the same thing after 4 years. And to be clear, it's not like Vanessa is a good student. fta: a month into the school year, Vanessa stumbled. She failed her first test in statistics, a…

Sounds to me like it was the first time she had a reality check and she had no idea what to do about it. A GPA of 3.5 is equivalent to a middling upper-second-class degree in the UK, respectable by all accounts. This girl isn't stupid: she was inadequately prepared and inadequately counselled in the face of failure.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#114

Post by joshvm »

notsureifwant wrote: post #96
dragonwriter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find this very interesting in light of studies I've seen in Canada and Europe: Those studies all found that parental income was irrelevant after regressing for the overwhelming effect of parental education. All past US studies I've seen have shown the same thing, or at least that parental educational attainment is a better predictor of a persons educational attainment than any other factor, including parental inc…

My personal interpretation is that a lot of this effect is driven by the fact that income (which I think we tend to think about as a proxy for standard of living, including quality of school system and safety of neighborhood, and not just what their family can buy) is often difficult to measure, and parental education might actually offer a much better measure of "standard of living" children experience (which is why…

Wealth is a poor indicator of education. Usually the questions will be how much do the parents earn, rather than where they live or their standard of living. My Dad has a doctorate in physics from a top university, yet he's pretty much given up normal employment and lives a happy sustainable life. Measured by annual income alone, he's probably below the poverty line.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#115

Post by 205guy »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #85
js2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bummer: Vanessa called home, looking for reassurance. Her mother had always been so supportive, but now she sounded doubtful about whether Vanessa was really qualified to succeed at an elite school like the University of Texas. “Maybe you just weren’t meant to be there,” she said. “Maybe we should have sent you to a junior college first.” After reading the whole article, this is what really stuck with me. I…

> I just can't fathom a parent ever saying this to their child regardless of wealth or education. It's hard for me to imagine, too; for a long time I thought Beauty School Dropout was one of the funniest songs I'd ever heard for that reason. However, like my sibling says, the mother is correct. This girl is quite far below a normal student at UT Austin -- it's not good for her to be in classes targeted at them, and i…

I rarely down vote, but this is borderline classist. As in "screw the poor and disadvantaged, we should only support those who win, not those who can win."

I really like UT's 7% rule. You have to believe that ability is equally distributed, just not opportunity. But when you get the abled from the disadvantaged high schools, they need more tools to succeed. Frankly, I think the disadvantaged shouldn't be segregated, they should make the advantaged pair up with them for tutoring so both can learn something valuable. Maybe for those that already know how to learn, they shouldn't be graded on learning more but on learning how to help others. Now that would be an eye-opener.

Remember if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate (that's a chemistry joke).

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#116

Post by 205guy »

brc wrote: post #54
cperciva wrote: post #27

The second trend is that whether a student graduates or not seems to depend today almost entirely on just one factor — how much money his or her parents make. To put it in blunt terms: Rich kids graduate; poor and working-class kids don’t. Or to put it more statistically: About a quarter of college freshmen born into the bottom half of the income distribution will manage to collect a bachelor’s degree by age 24, whil…

The most depressing thing for a parent to realise is that a lot of the factors that will determine whether or not their child is successful at attaining higher education are locked in place before the child is ever conceived. That is - quite apart from genetic differences - your own education level, motivation, attitudes and various other influences are set by the time you become a parent. It's difficult and unlikely…

The hopeful message is that some people are working hard to change this situation, so that able yet disadvantaged students can break the cycle and get a higher education.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#117

Post by 205guy »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #46
reubenmorais wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support…

Quick fact check: she's not smart. She's smart only in comparison to the rest of her high school, and the article points out she was admitted under UT's affirmative action program, wherein (for Austin) if you outperform 93% of your high school classmates, they let you in. But the article also points out that she scored the equivalent of a 1030 on the SAT. She's barely above average for the ACT-taking population of Te…

I'm surprised more people are not calling you out on your elitism. How can you fail to grasp that people in disadvantaged situations don't get the support to succeed the way non-disadvantaged students do. Maybe she had a job in high school to help out her single mom and buy a smartphone to participate in her social circles. Kids in the better high school in the same town had brand new cars and phones and time to study and to party.

And you also seem to be saying these disadvantaged kids shouldn't be helped to reach their potential.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#118

Post by Dewie »

reubenmorais wrote: post #12
tlb wrote: post #6

This is interesting because it shows a specific mechanism by which smart kids of non-college-educated parents drop out. She failed a test in her first month in college, and her mother told her maybe she wasn't meant to be there. I vaguely remember failing a test early in college too, but it never would have occurred to my (intelligentsia-class) parents that I wasn't meant to be educated. I can only imagine how discou…

Her mom's doubt certainly makes things worse, but I think the mechanism in motion in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet. Having college educated parents helps with the support…

> in this case is best described by Eric Raymond's "Curse of the Gifted" [0]. She's smart, intuitive, and hadn't had any trouble in academia before. When things get really complicated in college, everything collapses, and it takes a lot of effort and support to get back on your feet.

Might as well just call it spoilt brat syndrome. They were never given any challenges and they never sought them out (intellectually anyway, it seems). Then a few obstacles comes along and they collapse, never having had to deal with such things before. Then woe is them for having been lulled into a false sense of security all their life, including their parents.

Grade inflation and overoptimistic parents are probably partly to blame for this. But I have a hard time feeling sorry for these spoilt brats. Oh, so you actually have to work in order to get an A, or even work for a measly B? Life truly is unjust for demanding anything from you.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#119

Post by 205guy »

ykumar6 wrote: post #10

Uh oh.. "But here’s the key — none of them know that they’re in the bottom quartile.” The first rule of the Dashboard, in other words, is that you never talk about the Dashboard."

I was also wondering if it was responsible of those involved to be talking to the press about their work, even before they said this. They run the risk of counteracting their effects if the students think it is a gimmick. Also, students not selected for extra help could turn against them, as so many have against affirmative action in general.

Re: Who Gets to Graduate?

#120

Post by 205guy »

mballantyne wrote: post #50

An academic paper summarizing studies on the effect of attitude interventions like those discussed in the OP: https://labs.la.utexas.edu/adrg/files/2013/12/REVIEW-OF-EDUC... Positive feelings of belonging and capability seem to be a surprisingly powerful form of race and class based privilege.

It's not just "like" the OP, that IS the academic paper by the psychology professor in the article about the work mentioned in the article.
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