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My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

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Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#141

Post by crdoconnor »

tjmc wrote: post #113
crdoconnor wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limit to how much an employer can ask for in negotiations before I start to assume bad faith. A 2 year non-compete covering the entire industry I work in? That's not even halfway reasonable. You're actively trying to fuck me over. I don't care that it's not enforceable. You're still trying to fuck me over. I don't care that you're willing to compromise on that clause when I argue. You're still trying to fu…

I totally respect that stance and I wish it was more widespread. Just speaking from my own experiences – I’ve been presented 2 or 3 very unreasonable contracts that I renegotiated and the employers were fine to work with. I think the non-compete clauses were there out of their own insecurities about competitors rather than any intention to screw me over. I can’t know that for sure, but at the end of the day the only…

>In business, a lot of people like to play hardball. Doesn't mean they’re all assholes.

Playing negotiation hardball with somebody who is potentially reliant upon you to put a roof over their head and food on the table makes you an asshole. Let's stop pretending that it doesn't.

It's entirely different to negotiating a 20 million dollar exit.

If I'm going to be paid a LOT of money I might consider some of these terms (> $250k), but generally I find anyway that the more the employer pays you the more reasonable they tend to be.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#142

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Alex_MJ wrote: post #98
wyager wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing. This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying. If you never have to deal with this kind of social stress as a child, how can you possibly deal with it as an adult? Perhaps gettin…

I would argue more that the instilled mindset of "do as the authority figures say, you have no influence in the matter" that's pervasive in schools also does a huge amount to train adults to not feel like they have this option. That takes a lot to overwrite when it's instilled in you for the first 18 years of your life.

Yes. I read someone recently who advocated for ensuring your child got in trouble in school quite early on - for something non-violent, minor (maybe uniform infringements or talking in class) so that they could see that the whole world won't collapse if they do something their teacher disagrees with.

One of my young child's (c.5-6 at the time) teachers made their claimed authority explicit in demanding that they be obeyed "first time every time" without the chance to question or consider what they were being asked - that's a bit too close to demanding mindlessness for my liking, terribly arrogant too.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#143

Post by crdoconnor »

faster wrote: post #115
crdoconnor wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limit to how much an employer can ask for in negotiations before I start to assume bad faith. A 2 year non-compete covering the entire industry I work in? That's not even halfway reasonable. You're actively trying to fuck me over. I don't care that it's not enforceable. You're still trying to fuck me over. I don't care that you're willing to compromise on that clause when I argue. You're still trying to fu…

Most companies buy packages of HR docs from their law firm, or from an HR-focused law firm that does nothing but churn these things out. They all have the same basic list of clauses. So I wouldn't attribute this one clause to general maliciousness. I would wonder though, why so many people said there was no such clause. I have drawn lines through the objectionable parts of employment agreements, initialed my changes,…

I used to think this too, but not any more. If you sign something, you're taking responsibility for it. Period. It applies to me and it applies to the employer. No exceptions.

The exception you're describing is where the employer is hopelessly naive and unknowingly signed and gave me a contract they didn't read with horrendous terms, and they're very apologetic when I ask them to amend it.

Well, that actually happened to me once.

I thought everything was fine when the terms were amended, but the guy who hired me was still hopelessly naive.

That ended up SERIOUSLY coming back to bite me in the ass as he ran out of money, panicked, hid himself and didn't tell anybody what happened. Eventually he told me that he ended up not paying me because he couldn't.

He was a nice guy and he plainly felt awful, but that wasn't much consolation to my bank account.

So yeah, the when there's a possibility you're negotiating with somebody who is either hopelessly naive or evil, I don't really care which they are. I don't want to work for them either way and neither should you.

In general the ones who intentionally put the clauses in weren't necessarily the most awful places to work in the world, but none of them were job opportunities of the lifetime, and I wouldn't have felt bad passing any of them up.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#144

Post by pbhjpbhj »

pzxc wrote: post #122
CeramicTeapot wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a verbal amendment to your employment contract, and as long as you do not sign an additional contract that somehow says "No, this actually means this" feel free to fuck shit up in court. That is a breach of contract and the company will be liable for damages (if any) and at least be required to give up any assumed license. Verbal employment contracts are enforceable in in all 50 states.

This is absolutely 100% false and a good example of why you shouldn't take legal advice from the internet. When you have a written contract, any and all verbal contracts or amendments mean absolutely nothing. It's called the "four corners doctrine" and is a pretty universal judicial practice. Written contracts always, ALWAYS supersede any verbal agreements: with a written contract in hand, any mentions of oral discus…

I can't really believe this - if both parties agreed an alternate contract was made orally then the court would effectively rule against both parties in favour of supporting a knowingly false contract?

FWIW the Wikipedia definition, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_%28law%29, contrasts sharply with your use and doesn't really seem to speak at all to overwriting of terms by further contracts.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#145

Post by crdoconnor »

wyager wrote: post #67
ISL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong work. Not everyone has the will, nor the financial wherewithal, to do such a thing.

>Not everyone has the will... to do such a thing. This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying. If you never have to deal with this kind of social stress as a child, how can you possibly deal with it as an adult? Perhaps gettin…

>This may just be crotchety old man talk, but sometimes I wonder if the extremely protective child-rearing (particularly in schools) that seems to be abundant today will make future adults particularly susceptible to this kind of bullying.

Teaching children to respect authority figures will make them susceptible to this kind of bullying.

Exposing children to physical assault is not going to be any help whatsoever during future contract negotiations. Probably it will be a hindrance, in fact.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#146

Post by pbhjpbhj »

walshemj wrote: post #137

If Mr Lobel is claiming to be a legal academic (a professor for fracks sake) his lack of knowledge in how employment law devoped in common law jurestrictions is truly shocking. Employers owning employees ideas "related" to thier employment has been the case for a very long time.

"jurestrictions", can't tell if typo, clever pun on jure, or unknown legalese. Google gives me 2 English language pages with it on, a blog and a forum thread - I'm going with typo for "jurisdiction".

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#147

Post by Fuxy »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #75
ISL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong work. Not everyone has the will, nor the financial wherewithal, to do such a thing.

I was very fortunate. I was single, and at the time I lived _very_ cheaply, and I had set aside enough money that I could survive almost a year without work. Before that, every job I had ever worked had that stupid clause, and I had swore I would never sign it again. I was only at this place because the money was really, really good. The work environment was the worst I've ever experienced. When they sprung that on m…

That's why it think these kinds of contracts should have very strong limitations since as it stands now an employer could potentially make you sign a contract that would effectively make you unable to earn a living and survive for years or own any intellectual property you may have developed in your own time for the purpose of say starting your own business.

They could cripple you if they wanted to.

To be honest there's not much difference between this an slavery and when signing is the difference between putting food on the table or starving everybody is a slave.

Of course you could always not sign but not everyone has the luxury to do that i would argue most people don't.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#148

Post by jbrooksuk »

I'm extremely lucky that my employer has the "do whatever you want out of work" attitude to things. I wanted to start selling Smart Watches, so I asked my boss and his reply was "it's your time, so long as it doesn't take up paid work time, you're free to do whatever".

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#149

Post by anonymousDan »

This is the number one thing I would like to see any kind of IT labour organization campaign against. I don't really care about much else, so long as I am free to work on whatever I want in my own time and with my own resources so long as it doesn't interfere directly with my employer's line of business.

Re: My Ideas, My Boss’s Property

#150

Post by anonymousDan »

DannyBee wrote: post #21
keypusher wrote: post #4

I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? What if I was to write a book during that sam…

"I've always been particularly confused by the contract clauses which specify that all work of the employee during their time at the company is property of the company itself. Does this mean that if I develop some completely unrelated software in my spare time while working as a programmer at a large company, that the software I created at home also belongs to my employer? " In most states, the answer is "yes, it pro…

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware Switzerland had similar provisions, I thought it was just the state of California.
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