A universal income is not such a silly idea • Hacker News Board

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#141

Post by nateabele » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

People like to bring these things up to as thought experiments about how they'd fly in other countries, but one thing to keep in mind is that Switzerland is a really, really different place. Particularly compared to the US, it has fairly stable demographics, and obtaining citizenship is absurdly difficult.

While the Reuter's article doesn't mention that as a prerequisite for income benefits, one can reasonably infer that they're not gonna start handing out money to anyone who wanders in.

Contrast that with the US, where you get healthcare and free public education just for making it across the border from Mexico.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#142

Post by nawitus » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #11

Rather than these posts discussing universal basic income in abstract, I would like to see someone go through a back of the envelope scenario for a real country that might try it. Switzerland or some other European country. Presumably there would need to be major changes to income tax brackets (especially for the lower income tiers) & dismantling of various existing welfare programs in order to fund a basic income. I…

Here's[1] a detailet scenario for basic income in Finland.

Key points: cost neutral, basic income would be 440€/month (although the study is a bit dated, and would be higher these day due to inflation) and the tax rate would be 36% (low in Finland).

1. http://www.vihreat.fi/files/liitto/TheBasicIncomeModel.doc‎

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#143

Post by hugofirth » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

One point of confusion for me, that I hope someone with a sounder economics background than myself can address, is:

Would the national unconditional basic income render the national minimum wage effectively 0 (or much lower than it currently is)?

For example, corporations could be taxed more heavily if they could offer their lowest paid positions a wage of £2 per hour. This extra taxation would then help fund a national basic wage (equivalent to say £5) which would leave a low-skilled worker earning £7 (roughly what they were before). I had assumed that any such 'basic income' scheme would be so prohibitively expensive as to require such drastic means, just to find the money, however I haven't seen any such changes mentioned in many of the articles discussing the relative merits of the Swiss proposal.

As an aside - for those saying: "What if people don't spend the money responsibly?" - Isn't that, somewhat idealistically, a large part of the point of the scheme?

The scheme would encourage responsibility, rather than treating people like children? Yes things like addiction (to Gambling, Drugs etc...) throws a spanner in the works of this - but charities and support groups exist to tackle this kind of issue already - they could continue to do so, with one critical difference. Charities could do a lot more with less if their workers were earning a basic income from elsewhere, and could afford to give their time for less ££.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#144

Post by downandout » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:50 PM UTC

hatu wrote: post #6

In a country with it's own currency, wouldn't this just raise prices until finally the effect would be being back to step 1 but with huge inflation. I.e. I'm selling bread for $3. Now I get $1500 free money every month and I know you do too. I'm selling bread for $6 because I know everyone has extra money lying around and since I have extra money I don't really care if people buy less from me.

>In a country with it's own currency, wouldn't this just raise prices until finally the effect would be being back to step 1 but with huge inflation

Yes.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#145

Post by driverdan » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

d4nt wrote: post #65

downandout wrote: post #31

Progressives seem to have lost all understanding of the concept of money. It is a means of trade. The spending power of the basic income will ultimately reflect the value its recipients produced in order to obtain it - zero in this case.

We're already giving money to people with no job, this would effectively take money off people who administer welfare systems and give it to low paid workers who would then get benefits and wages.

Not at all. It gives money to everyone regardless of income. Welfare makes up a small percentage of GDP (unless you include all entitlement programs which this wouldn't). A basic income would be a huge percentage of GDP. IIRC in Switzerland's case this is about 25% of GDP. That's a massive increase in government spending.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#146

Post by bratsche » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

mariusz79 wrote: post #35

Basic income has potential but I think people are waiting for the governments to provide, while there is possibly another way. Imagine creating bitcoin version that does not favor early adopters, but allows everyone participating to get the same amount of coins every week. Of course it's easier said than done, and it would need to be detailed a little more, but I think it's possible.

Step 2: convince landlord to accept this new currency instead of USD (or whatever local currency). ;)

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#147

Post by DanBC » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

PaulJoslin wrote: post #25

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

A few people do not want to work, and have no intention of ever working.

Do these people currently get incapacity benefit, income support, employment and support allowance, etc, coupled with housing benefit and council tax benefit?

Some of those benefits require people to go to an office and demonstrate willingness to work. So, these people who have no intention of getting a job sap the time and energy of advisors who could be helping people who do want to work.

> What's worse is that assuming the people who are unemployed are given the choice on how that money is spent, they may in fact not spend the money sensibly (i.e. on their housing) and end up homeless instead.

Currently, people can become "intentionally homeless". Didn't pay your rent and got evicted? Tough, you don't get social housing. If you're lucky (or you have unlucky children) you may get some emergency accommodation.

It's very tough to get council / housing association housing in the UK. Some places have a waiting list of 26 years. (twenty six years, so you know this isn't a typo.) And that's of the people who are eligible to go on the list - including everyone who thinks they're eligible makes the wait even worse.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#148

Post by brazzy » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:53 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #109

brazzy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> over time inflation will adjust to the point that the spending power of the basic income will approach zero. Through what mechanism exactly? Please also explain why this hasn't happened with other, existing forms of social subsidies. It seems like it is your understanding of money that is laughably over-simplified.

They will have to print this money, because there is nowhere else to get it. What happens when you print money but there is no additional demand for it? You guessed it...the value drops. Markets are surprisingly efficient at pricing things like this in. Are you seriously trying to make the argument that their economy will absorb this with no effect on the value of their currency?

> because there is nowhere else to get it.

Why that? Nobody's talking about abolishing taxes. Note also that the basic income would replace many other forms of social subsidies that already exist and have harmful side effects.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#149

Post by veganarchocap » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:53 PM UTC

You would likely have to increase taxes. Taxes are extracted from us involuntarily through coercion. I don't think re-arranging this model in any format will change that.

Our best option is to spend less, shrink the state and get rid of income tax, especially on those say, living under this proposed living wage.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#150

Post by dmix » Thu, Nov 28, 2013, 3:54 PM UTC

ansimionescu wrote: post #27

netcan wrote: post #11

Rather than these posts discussing universal basic income in abstract, I would like to see someone go through a back of the envelope scenario for a real country that might try it. Switzerland or some other European country. Presumably there would need to be major changes to income tax brackets (especially for the lower income tiers) & dismantling of various existing welfare programs in order to fund a basic income. I…

Very good point. After all, we all know how sometimes wonderful ideas can turn out badly [1]. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Socialism was a good idea, maybe an unrealistic one in many respects.

Whereas Communism via "Vanguard-party" was always a bad idea. Pretty much all of communist countries never got past the Vanguard transitional stage and ended up with a brutal dictatorship.