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An Apology From TechCrunch

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Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#141

Post by jfarmer »

farmerjack wrote: post #36
USNetizen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had to create a new HN identity to post that? Afraid of something? Hacker culture is no longer a good-ol-boy's club for good reasons. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel very included in a culture that denigrated me like certain hacker events of late do to women.

I didn't have an HN identity. I felt like this might be an interesting discussion, so I created an account. Is it a big secret that men like to look at boobs? I'd like to meet the women who were so offended by such an obvious joke. In the entire circle of women I know, I really can't think of one who wouldn't recognize the playfulness of the idea (and not take it seriously). If a female made an app that included men'…

> If a female made an app that included men's butts, would people have the same reaction?

When the jester mocks the king it's funny. When the king mocks the jester it's just mean.

The situation is inherently asymmetric, which makes but-what-if-they-were-(men/white/straight/etc.) arguments facile at best and disingenuous at worst.

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#142

Post by MetaCosm »

gojomo wrote: post #125
MetaCosm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Would be nice if the people running a hackathon like this simply put a note "Keep it family friendly" (which, with a 9 year old presenting, seems reasonable). Context matters a ton, but don't assume people have a clue, spell it out. "Keep it G rated, this is a family friendly hackathon" ...

I would like to see the opinion of someone who actually brought their young child to the event... or even, ideally, from a child in attendance. When parents bring a child to an event that's traditionally ~99% adults, I'm not sure that what they want is for the event to down-shift to be more 'family friendly'. They may be trying to show their child more of the authentic grown-up world. I think that's what my parents w…

But, your parents KNEW it was R-rated, they didn't go into an UNKNOWN and then got whatever they got... I am fine with a hackathon saying "This is X rated, for improving " -- that is perfect fine, it isn't about the specific expectation, it is about SETTING one.

Having no guidance means that if this is acceptable is far more grey... I think it if was supposed to be G-rated, everyone would agree it was not.

Clear boundaries and expectations help everyone, from a parent deciding if their children should participate to an adult deciding if they want to attend.

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#143

Post by theorique »

angersock wrote: post #138
theorique wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, but at TechCrunch Disrupt? There's a time and a place for this kind of thing and it's not at a generalist startups and software industry conference.

The event is keep us abreast of the new products, as it were.

I see what you did there.

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#144

Post by theorique »

metaphorm wrote: post #117
theorique wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, but at TechCrunch Disrupt? There's a time and a place for this kind of thing and it's not at a generalist startups and software industry conference.

why not? The porn industry has been responsible for a lot of technological innovation on the internet. They were pioneers for electronic billing, for streaming video, for high scalability websites, and for user-uploaded content. Should we exclude all content with a sexual nature, even if there is good technology behind it?

You have a good point about the porn industry.

If someone were presenting a true technical innovation that happened to be inspired by the needs of that industry, that would not be objectionable as long as the 'product' itself weren't displayed in the presentation. (e.g. this innovation in streaming video software enables 10,000 concurrent streams etc etc)

Though if it were the AVN conference rather than TechCrunch, showing the product would be practically required. You, know, for demonstration purposes ...

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#145

Post by MistahKoala »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #126
parennoob wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the demographics of the industry, I don't think it was an accident that it was "TitStare" rather than "DongStare" or "CockStare". Translation from roundaboutspeak -> English: Yes, it was an app marketed at men (though remember that there are lesbians and bisexual men and women as well that like tits) that sexually objectified women. If sexual objectification was the sole reason that made women leave an indust…

In general, sex workers choose their profession out of desperation.

In general, it depends on where in the world they are, and in general (if we're framing this in terms of the same women for whom a hackathon might be accessible), they are driven by characteristic/ psychological factors (Sexually Transmitted Diseases:Volume 26(2)February 1999).

That's also pretty demeaning to women whose choices deserve to be respected, rather than pitied ("poor, silly women!").

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#146

Post by WestCoastJustin »

gojomo wrote: post #125
MetaCosm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Would be nice if the people running a hackathon like this simply put a note "Keep it family friendly" (which, with a 9 year old presenting, seems reasonable). Context matters a ton, but don't assume people have a clue, spell it out. "Keep it G rated, this is a family friendly hackathon" ...

I would like to see the opinion of someone who actually brought their young child to the event... or even, ideally, from a child in attendance. When parents bring a child to an event that's traditionally ~99% adults, I'm not sure that what they want is for the event to down-shift to be more 'family friendly'. They may be trying to show their child more of the authentic grown-up world. I think that's what my parents w…

Apparently she was on twitter @ https://twitter.com/kkjordan/status/376792617553362944

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#147

Post by foobarbazqux »

MistahKoala wrote: post #145
foobarbazqux wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, sex workers choose their profession out of desperation.

In general, it depends on where in the world they are, and in general (if we're framing this in terms of the same women for whom a hackathon might be accessible), they are driven by characteristic/ psychological factors (Sexually Transmitted Diseases:Volume 26(2)February 1999). That's also pretty demeaning to women whose choices deserve to be respected, rather than pitied ("poor, silly women!").

Desperately trying to escape the shittiness of your life through drug abuse, and from there getting into prostitution, is still desperation.

Say what you will about respect, but I find it disgusting that our society demeans women by congratulating them for entering sex work as a profession. ("Oh good for you, you made a free choice to take off your panties for me! What a sweet little empowered capitalist you are!") There are plenty of abolitionist women's groups around the world that agree, for example:

http://www.womensmediacenter.com/feature/entry/abolishing-pr...

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#148

Post by Amadou »

gojomo wrote: post #135
educating wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sexism is in knowing that it will make most women somewhat uncomfortable, and some women very uncomfortable, and not caring. I'd go so far as to say that how is an app that is all about exploiting women NOT sexist? It is more than just making them uncomfortable. Some pics are taken of women that are drug addicted or white slaves or both. For most that do it on their own initiative, it is a decision they will re…

Personally I thought the demo was meta-commentary about absurd photo-sharing apps, community standards, and the combined awkwardness/humor of "men caught looking" (and then we, the audience or hypothetical users of the app, "caught looking at men looking"). Regressive, yes, but also recursive. The chosen example photos seemed to have as their subject the male gaze, not the breasts themselves. And, unless staged, such…

The chosen example photos seemed to have as their subject the male gaze, not the breasts themselves.

Yes, so many people seem to have missed this key point. To quote from the opening sentence in the presentation - "Titstare is an app where you take photos of yourself staring at tits."

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#149

Post by parennoob »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #147
MistahKoala wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, it depends on where in the world they are, and in general (if we're framing this in terms of the same women for whom a hackathon might be accessible), they are driven by characteristic/ psychological factors (Sexually Transmitted Diseases:Volume 26(2)February 1999). That's also pretty demeaning to women whose choices deserve to be respected, rather than pitied ("poor, silly women!").

Desperately trying to escape the shittiness of your life through drug abuse, and from there getting into prostitution, is still desperation. Say what you will about respect, but I find it disgusting that our society demeans women by congratulating them for entering sex work as a profession. ("Oh good for you, you made a free choice to take off your panties for me! What a sweet little empowered capitalist you are!") T…

Say what you will about personal choice, but I find it empowering that our society enables women by letting them them freely enter sex work as a profession.

^ See what I did there? You believe sex workers are homeless druggies, I believe they are efficient businesswomen. The truth probably lies somewhere in between. At some point, it basically becomes your personal views about exchanging sex for money, and the morality involved therein.

Which is exactly what I'm saying about the current fracas -- it is a few people who have quickly-offended personal moralities that have been outraged by TitShare or whatever. Tying it to a larger issue of "this is why women don't work in tech" is a futile exercise.

Re: An Apology From TechCrunch

#150

Post by parennoob »

subsystem wrote: post #81
andrewljohnson wrote: post #38

When I first saw the TitStare thing, I thought it was a Google Glass hack to let you stare at boobs without actually looking at them directly. While still a really sexist thing, I thought such an app would be an interesting hack, and make quite a statement about the future of these wearable technologies... might be considered an art project if cast in the right light (and also probably renamed). But a boob-photo shar…

If something is actually good it rarely has to hide behind something like sexism. It's not like you read xkcd and think "I wish it had more dick jokes".

No, it's not like you read xkcd and think "I wish it had more dick jokes".

I would prefer my xkcd with an extra side order of dick jokes with fries. Please stop generalizing your personal likes and dislikes and rebasing them onto the rest of us.

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