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Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

theguardian.com

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Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#141

Post by Groxx »

criley2 wrote: post #8
spodek wrote: post #5

"Can we call it a police state now?" I saw the question on Reddit after a different revelation last month. I feel like we're going to ask that question more and more. I can only hope more and more of us are inspired, as Snowden was by Levinson (Lavabit's CEO) and many of us have been by both of them, and we act to protect ourselves and constrain our governments from overreaching to where they can't help repeating the…

My reply on Reddit when I see people bring that up is simple: You insult people who have experienced a police state by calling what we are experiencing a police state. A police state has no distinction between legislation and executive. Our legislation is currently investigating the president for: * CIA coverup of the attack on our Benghazi consulate' * IRS targeting of political opposition They're planning on using…

This is rather silly. It's only a police state when there is literally no distinction, and the leader has absolute, unquestioned power, and always gets their way? Has this ever actually existed?

It's a continuum. All such terms are. Shouldn't people be upset when the current location swings noticeably in an undesirable direction? What else should it be called? "Can we call it a 45% police state with intermittent oversight favoring the executive branch yet?"

And anyway. Why get upset when others get a taste of something bad? Instead of being demeaned by it, why not support, since you know how bad it can get? Whenever stuff like this comes up, it's echoed by "That's insulting, in my day..." as if that somehow makes what's happening now not bad.

This isn't a contest for who knows / has lived in the worst governing body.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#142

Post by mpyne »

wonderyak wrote: post #124
zeidrich wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being held accountable is irrelevant. If what people want is someone to be accountable, people will get scapegoats. The key difference would be that when acts happen that defy the needs and expectations of society that those actions end. If Keith Alexander was blamed for acting without authorization and imprisoned for treason and then NSA operations went quietly on their way again, that wouldn't necessarily mean anyt…

Many of us are calling for changes, many people thought electing Obama would facilitate this change. I think these people are the most upset of all; the man ran on a campaign of change ... There is a general concensus among people across the political parties that things are broken. Congress is not good, the President is not doing a good job and problems are mounting. The majority realizes that the system is broken (…

The election of Obama did facilitate a lot of change within NSA. It simply wasn't the type of change you all thought it would be, but it is an improvement in most respects compared to 2007's DoJ and DoD.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#143

Post by samstave »

twoodfin wrote: post #121
samstave wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, calling out the US on the fact that it actually is a police state is sober. If you do not recognize what the true nature of the US is at this point, then you may be in denial about it. While you might say that things are "not that bad" - just because you hav some relative "comfort" (so long as you're not against the State) - does not mean that the actual architecture of the system is not that of a police state.

Just out of morbid curiosity, when do you think the U.S. became a police state? Decade-level precision is fine.

I would love to give you the long version of this, but here is the answer to your question:

The US became a police state as soon as the CIA did its coup of the executive branch. Now, when this actually occurred is debatable - but my opinion is that they succeeded 100% once GHW Bush took the VP spot as Reagan's handler.

This coup was a LONG time in the making -- and goes all the way back to Prescott, but ever since 1980 - every president has been a puppet of GHW Bush and the CIA.

If you're interested in sources and history, we can discuss further...

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#144

Post by mpyne »

wonderyak wrote: post #126
twoodfin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so sure these programs are illegal? Might it be possible that you find them distasteful, but that under our current Constitutional and legal regime, there's nothing for anyone to be "held accountable" for?

Part of the problem is the FISA Court. The court has the power to interpret the constitution, holds secret hearings, the rulings are secret and only government lawyers are allowed. You can now break the law without even knowing it.

Not really, no.

For starters, the law creating FISA isn't something that one can "break", necessarily. The only ones who can run afoul of it are agencies like the NSA, not the populace at large.

More importantly though, the public law carves out a niche that they allow the NSA to operate under, with the proviso that the NSA get the activities pre-approved and overseen by the FISA Court, and with reports routinely made to Congress. The FISA Court verifies that the NSA's proposed activities fall within the scope of the FISA (as amendmended) and with normal case law.

For the approved programs (even the secret ones) they are approved because of the fact that they fall within the area laid out by public law (in the opinion of the FISA Court of course, but that issue underlies all of law).

Even in unclassified jurisprudence there are lots of examples of closed-door court sessions, gag orders, etc.

Now I agree that there are problems with the way the FISA Court is staffed and composed, but those problems don't derive from the closed-door nature as much as from the fact that a single person is able to stack that Court as he/she wishes.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#145

Post by mpyne »

rthomas6 wrote: post #24
mhurron wrote: post #22

And now we have completed the move to the story is about Snowden. I wonder what his favorite food is? What is his favorite band? Where is his favorite place to shop? What does he think of the architecture of St. Basils? A few more weeks and it will be 'Privacy Expert Snowden says...' and no one will remember why he's even famous.

Stop assailing our great leader Snowden Christ.

Obviously you should have remembered to use the term "Dear Leader". Get it right next time.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#146

Post by oscargrouch »

wonderyak wrote: post #124
zeidrich wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being held accountable is irrelevant. If what people want is someone to be accountable, people will get scapegoats. The key difference would be that when acts happen that defy the needs and expectations of society that those actions end. If Keith Alexander was blamed for acting without authorization and imprisoned for treason and then NSA operations went quietly on their way again, that wouldn't necessarily mean anyt…

Many of us are calling for changes, many people thought electing Obama would facilitate this change. I think these people are the most upset of all; the man ran on a campaign of change ... There is a general concensus among people across the political parties that things are broken. Congress is not good, the President is not doing a good job and problems are mounting. The majority realizes that the system is broken (…

You guys need to do what we are doing in Brazil, protests every day until government change its position and create a true agenda, and a new pact with his people.. its working over here.. the government are doing now in weeks things it use to take years to do..

We live in a age where polititians are completely obtuse from the people who elect them..

we live in the age of schizophrenic democracies.. the people are much more evolved and sophisticated, and they are still doing the same sort of politics it use to work in the past..

well, we need to make them hear a clear message, they need to hear that things have changed, we changed for the better, and if they insist in not listening to us.. let them know that or they do it, or we will make it work in other ways..

but making them know we are not just that silly harmless sheap that accepts everything anymore.. and that consumism its not enough anymore.. we want and need more.. they will listen.

at least we are having a good experience overhere.. they are aware of us, of our needs and our expectations.. finally!

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#147

Post by adammil »

twoodfin wrote: post #44
syncerr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication is that it's unconstitutional. And a violation on such scale...

I haven't seen any evidence of programs that are prima facie unconstitutional. You may wish that the Fourth Amendment required a warrant to search any of your communications, but that's not how the courts have interpreted it. Nations have been opening messages that crossed their borders for centuries. That's not to say each and every instance of these programs has always been scrupulously constitutional, but we never…

They are opening messages that don't cross borders.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#148

Post by buuda »

twoodfin wrote: post #31
RyanZAG wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in that a key difference would be if people were held accountable for illegal acts. However, simply investigating the president is not enough - it would actually need to be possible for him to be accused and held liable. An investigation in which the conclusion is already obvious and no one will be held accountable is not really an investigation, it is only smoke and mirrors. Throwing out one set of…

Why are you so sure these programs are illegal? Might it be possible that you find them distasteful, but that under our current Constitutional and legal regime, there's nothing for anyone to be "held accountable" for?

That is part of the problem. A legal framework, relying in part on secret rulings re-interpreting the Fourth Amendment, have has been constructed for these programs to give them 'legality'. Secret courts, secret laws and secret rulings are blatantly antithetical to a democracy and do give the sheen of a police state, but at the same time politicians and talking heads can refer to these programs as 'legal'.

What amazes me is that Clapper can baldly lie to Congress and not even have to resign, let alone be prosecuted. Lying to Congress is a federal crime! Yet the government spends $40 million prosecuting Roger Clemens for lying to Congress about steroids, and they couldn't even get a conviction.

Also, Clapper has been wrong about many things, including Libya and Egypt. I believe the US government wants total spying because their intelligence agencies are so incompetent at identifying threats. 9/11 proves this as the CIA had identified two of the hijackers as Al Qaeda members, determined they had US visas and then did not tell the FBI or State Department. The NSA had phone transcriptions of terrorists and refused to share them with the FBI. The FBI actually started building listening stations in Africa and the east at great expense due to NSA intransigence.

Before 9/11, they were very vigilant about respecting laws on intelligence gathering. After 9/11 it all went out the window, laws were broadened and oversight has been strangled.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#149

Post by jjh42 »

zeidrich wrote: post #120
RyanZAG wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in that a key difference would be if people were held accountable for illegal acts. However, simply investigating the president is not enough - it would actually need to be possible for him to be accused and held liable. An investigation in which the conclusion is already obvious and no one will be held accountable is not really an investigation, it is only smoke and mirrors. Throwing out one set of…

Being held accountable is irrelevant. If what people want is someone to be accountable, people will get scapegoats. The key difference would be that when acts happen that defy the needs and expectations of society that those actions end. If Keith Alexander was blamed for acting without authorization and imprisoned for treason and then NSA operations went quietly on their way again, that wouldn't necessarily mean anyt…

I agree that it is important to reform the system, not just scapegoating. However, I think you minimize the importance of holding individuals accountable and the effect that has on the system.

For example, suppose Clapper is imprisoned for 6 months and looses his job for contempt of congress (he is the one who falsely told congress that the NSA was not spying on millions of Americans). I imagine it will be awhile before the next NSA leader decides to tell congress a porkie. Done properly, individual accountability has a systemic effect.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#150

Post by obstacle1 »

criley2 wrote: post #8
spodek wrote: post #5

"Can we call it a police state now?" I saw the question on Reddit after a different revelation last month. I feel like we're going to ask that question more and more. I can only hope more and more of us are inspired, as Snowden was by Levinson (Lavabit's CEO) and many of us have been by both of them, and we act to protect ourselves and constrain our governments from overreaching to where they can't help repeating the…

My reply on Reddit when I see people bring that up is simple: You insult people who have experienced a police state by calling what we are experiencing a police state. A police state has no distinction between legislation and executive. Our legislation is currently investigating the president for: * CIA coverup of the attack on our Benghazi consulate' * IRS targeting of political opposition They're planning on using…

>You insult people who have experienced a police state by calling what we are experiencing a police state.

Surely as a logical, intelligent HN poster you understand that this is not a valid counterargument? It is rhetorically quite a persuasive statement, but if you have a strong argument why is an emotional appeal necessary?

>A police state has no distinction between legislation and executive.

So when secret courts start popping up, what does that mean to you? When repressive arms of the state are free to exercise unrestricted surveillance despite prohibitive legislation, what does that mean to you?

The names of things mean very little. How they function is what's important.

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