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Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

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Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#141

Post by w_t_payne »

jlgreco wrote: post #100
w_t_payne wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW: A lot of terrorists had/have an engineering background.

> "FWIW" It is worth fuck all.

Possibly, yes ... but there may be something to it. Certainly, as a problem-solver, I get frustrated when I find a problem that I cannot solve. I tend to stay away from political (aka insoluble) problems for that very reason. My wife works in a more political field, often on problems where positions are held intransigently; where progress is measured incrementally; and where "solutions" may never be found. I would go insane in such a grinding; pointless environment. Insane enough to commit murder? In my case, probably not, but I don't think I would be too far off, and I can well imagine those who might be driven to such extremes.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#142

Post by w_t_payne »

peterwwillis wrote: post #96
lazerwalker wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most 'good hackers' are wasted in Silicon Valley. You're right in that you can accomplish a lot more good in the world by focusing on solving problems at a higher level of abstraction than ground-level work, but at the same time most people working in tech aren't focusing on problems that are anywhere near as important as those that public service tackles.

most people working in tech aren't focusing on problems that are anywhere near as important as those that public service tackles FUCK. YES. This is exactly the point that should be made more. Can you imagine how much we could improve the quality of life of everyday people if everyone in Silicon Valley focused on economic, environmental and social issues for a couple months? There are so many problems whose solutions…

Picking the right problem is really, really hard.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#143

Post by jlgreco »

w_t_payne wrote: post #141
jlgreco wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "FWIW" It is worth fuck all.

Possibly, yes ... but there may be something to it. Certainly, as a problem-solver, I get frustrated when I find a problem that I cannot solve. I tend to stay away from political (aka insoluble) problems for that very reason. My wife works in a more political field, often on problems where positions are held intransigently; where progress is measured incrementally; and where "solutions" may never be found. I would go…

Pointing out that many terrorists are engineers is about as actionable as pointing out that many terrorists are religious.

Really, there is nothing you can do with this information. It is worthless, even if it is true.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#144

Post by peterwwillis »

jlgreco wrote: post #135
peterwwillis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps this generation has lost sight of what it means to be a hacker. It isn't about creating a new website. It's about taking a problem, and figuring out a solution, using any and every means. Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a chea…

> Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a cheaper alternative or find a way to incentive its use. LGBTQ community being told they're sick, or they can't raise an effective family? Spearhead studies to show the actual effects of LGBTQ people's lives…

These things do need clever people to work on them. And yes, there are better people out there. But those better people are not working in droves to solve public issues. If you think there's an army of genetic engineers working on food shortage in an effort just to feed more people, you're crazy. The ones working in the field are working for private companies for profit so they can make a buck, not to help less fortunate people.

At not-for-profits there's usually a person who has the drive to help people, and has studied some particular way of solving a problem and will use the same hammer for every single nail they face. They are not applying creativity, they are applying the one rigorous discipline they learned.

My brother works on social issues for latin americans, for example. He is not a genius, he does not have a PhD. But he is trying to solve real, multifaceted problems that people have with the only skills he has available - communications skills. He is only interested in attacking problems from one angle. But that may not be the best way to approach it.

This isn't an isolated example. I lived in DC and worked with volunteers who would all study essentially one thing ad-nauseum. The idea of going outside their field was preposterous because they had no idea how to go about it.

You should also consider that my definition of hacker has nothing to do with software development. Most software developers I know have got jack shit in the way of a hacker mentality.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#145

Post by w_t_payne »

penguindev wrote: post #94
w_t_payne wrote: post #2

Software developers generally occupy positions of considerable (if unacknowledged) power and trust within their organizations. The practice of software development necessarily involves dealing with minutiae in large quantities; in making making dozens of mostly small (but consequential) decisions each day. In aggregate, the effect of these decisions can be (and often is) of enormous import to the business or organiza…

That was a great post, thanks. I'd like to add another point - one may need paranoia [the common, not medical, interpretation] to make all that power work without bugs. You know the quote about a good programmer needing laziness, impatience, and hubris? I disagree, for many systems it should be laziness, impatience, and _paranoia_. Paranoia puts in asserts and assumes any untrusted input is just that, and puts in doc…

Well, one of the nice things (I think) about being a software developer (and one-time "scientist") is that you get to measure your mettle with nature - to test your ideas out in the real world - to see if your preconceptions hold, or if your ideas are only so much hot air ... and all too often, they are. My initial ideas are always wrong (well, most of the time), and I pretty much always need several rounds of testing against reality to refine my designs into something workable.

Getting the right answer is hard. Really hard. I never understood how some people could go through life and avoid ever being wrong; dancing around responsibilities, never taking the blame, being driven by a (frankly irresponsible) culture that demands perfection.

For me, my failures are lessons; mistakes marking a path of learning and progress.

Good will; systematic persistence; humility and humour - all recipes for learning and improvement: Flashy self-aggrandisement, an emphasis on performance and (self-proclaimed) brilliance: all recipes for deceit, lies and failure.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#146

Post by w_t_payne »

jlgreco wrote: post #143
w_t_payne wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, yes ... but there may be something to it. Certainly, as a problem-solver, I get frustrated when I find a problem that I cannot solve. I tend to stay away from political (aka insoluble) problems for that very reason. My wife works in a more political field, often on problems where positions are held intransigently; where progress is measured incrementally; and where "solutions" may never be found. I would go…

Pointing out that many terrorists are engineers is about as actionable as pointing out that many terrorists are religious. Really, there is nothing you can do with this information. It is worthless, even if it is true.

Again, possibly, yes -- the only insights on offer are seemingly rather obvious: that those seemingly predisposed to violence may be content with engaging with the problem in some other manner; if avenues were made available; That political engagement helps reduce societal tensions, and that providing avenues for political engagement that are as broad in participation as they are deep and detailed in substance may well engage and divert tensions that would otherwise lead to violence; This is well understood; and forms the basis of many peace processes around the world (Northern Ireland, for example).

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#147

Post by jlgreco »

peterwwillis wrote: post #144
jlgreco wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a cheaper alternative or find a way to incentive its use. LGBTQ community being told they're sick, or they can't raise an effective family? Spearhead studies to show the actual effects of LGBTQ people's lives…

These things do need clever people to work on them. And yes, there are better people out there. But those better people are not working in droves to solve public issues. If you think there's an army of genetic engineers working on food shortage in an effort just to feed more people, you're crazy. The ones working in the field are working for private companies for profit so they can make a buck, not to help less fortu…

I get that you don't think "hacker" implies developer. But you said: "Can you imagine how much we could improve the quality of life of everyday people if everyone in Silicon Valley focused on economic, environmental and social issues for a couple months?"

Those "Silicon Valley people"... what are they going to do? Do you really think "Silicon Valley people" are going with a crash course in genetic engineering are going to make a difference? What are these people going to bring to the table, besides being clever (like people in every other field) and being inexperienced?

If you think there are not enough biomed people volunteering to work with non-profits to find super-crops, then fine, that is a legitimate complaint. Don't focus on importing Silicon Valley people to fill that gap though, focus on telling the biomed people to get their act together and start volunteering.

There is nothing unique about the Silicon Valley brand of clever. Really what you are complaining about is that a bunch of clever people have acquired skill sets that are not particularly useful for solving most remaining social problems. Go convince students to switch majors if you really want to correct that.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#148

Post by oblique63 »

jlgreco wrote: post #131
rayiner wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of these things are amenable, at least partially, to technical solutions. Example: A major problem poor countries have is that donors donate medical equipment, but the healthcare systems have no ability to maintain or sometimes even not the knowledge to use that equipment. There is a ton of equipment that could be easily fixed, or even just unpacked and used, that instead sits gathering dust. Don't you think som…

It sounds like they need training and skilled labor, not hackers. Could a bunch of hackers get together and say "I know, lets roll Yet Another(tm) online training service to teach these doctors how to use and maintain complex medical equipment that we know nothing about!" ? Sure, a bunch of hackers could say such a thing. But is the real problem here really a lack of technology for online training? If you really want…

> Yet Another(tm) online training service to teach these doctors how to use and maintain complex medical equipment that we know nothing about!

That example could actually work, you know. There's nothing stopping you from automating some intelligent scraping for each item that gets registered into the db, and presenting the users with tid-bits of what that item can be used for and how to use it, with a couple of links to places. It may not seem like a lot because it's so simple, but just trying to gather that tiny bit of preliminary information is probably a huge bottleneck in places that aren't used to automating everything and have better things to worry about. At least with this service they'd be able to quickly dive-in, get an idea of what something does, and if they need to, click on a few links for more information and have their questions answered within a few minutes.

The problem here is just assuming that this is a 'hard' problem that we lack the skill sets for. If we start looking at it that way, we prevent ourselves from even really trying to find any solution because our minds have already hinted at us that it's useless. "Nothing is impossible", and a community of entrepreneurs like HN should know that by now; but for some reason that curiosity, ambition, and cleverness just shuts down when looking at bigger problems that we might be a bit detached from. That doesn't make sense.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#149

Post by lmm »

rayiner wrote: post #128
lmm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who has a greater moral character? Someone who puts all their effort into the public service with the skills they have, or someone who has some positive benefit on the public merely incident to his lucrative job? Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. >Inextricable from this evaluation is the fact that the guy who saved 1% of the electricity used at Facebook could probab…

> Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. Isn't that an ends justify the means sort of argument?

>Isn't that an ends justify the means sort of argument?

Yes?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#150

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #128
lmm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who has a greater moral character? Someone who puts all their effort into the public service with the skills they have, or someone who has some positive benefit on the public merely incident to his lucrative job? Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. >Inextricable from this evaluation is the fact that the guy who saved 1% of the electricity used at Facebook could probab…

> Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. Isn't that an ends justify the means sort of argument?

> Isn't that an ends justify the means sort of argument?

Well, no, its an outcomes justify the means arguments. Ends are the goals worked toward, and aren't the sum total of the outcomes of an action; "ends justify the means" is a frequently problematic approach to evaluating the a proposed course of action because it ignores the potential outcomes of the action aside from the intended goal.

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