Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#131

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #123

jlgreco wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my problem is that compared to many hackers, I think that technical solutions that hackers might be able to provide are rarely the proper solutions. What are the major problems today? Hunger? Overpopulation and access to family planning? Sanitation? Malaria, and other diseases? LGBT rights? Are any of these things really suffering for lack of hackers proposing technical solutions?

Lots of these things are amenable, at least partially, to technical solutions. Example: A major problem poor countries have is that donors donate medical equipment, but the healthcare systems have no ability to maintain or sometimes even not the knowledge to use that equipment. There is a ton of equipment that could be easily fixed, or even just unpacked and used, that instead sits gathering dust. Don't you think som…

It sounds like they need training and skilled labor, not hackers.

Could a bunch of hackers get together and say "I know, lets roll Yet Another(tm) online training service to teach these doctors how to use and maintain complex medical equipment that we know nothing about!"? Sure, a bunch of hackers could say such a thing. But is the real problem here really a lack of technology for online training?

If you really want to attack this problem, you would talk with the donors that donated the equipment in the first place and work on allocating the donations in a more sensible manner. That could be as simple as prioritizing donations to teaching hospitals and using some of the donation money to attract and retain skilled teachers instead of just using it all on equipment.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#132

Post by trust-me » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

Because nerd's will inevitably outcompete suits in a perfectly fair environment. So it makes sense to work towards one.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#133

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 9:50 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #119

hilko wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps hackers tend to be a little more structured and in-crowd, or downright strangers to most of the world. I'm not sure. Or perhaps hackers can easily be distracted by any type of problem, no matter how trivial, no how much it benefits others over them, or no matter how insignificant it is. I think the latter is true very often. The hackers I do know tend to be, generally speaking, wonderfully excited by problems…

I think my problem is that compared to many hackers, I think that technical solutions that hackers might be able to provide are rarely the proper solutions. What are the major problems today? Hunger? Overpopulation and access to family planning? Sanitation? Malaria, and other diseases? LGBT rights? Are any of these things really suffering for lack of hackers proposing technical solutions?

I think perhaps this generation has lost sight of what it means to be a hacker. It isn't about creating a new website. It's about taking a problem, and figuring out a solution, using any and every means.

Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a cheaper alternative or find a way to incentivize its use. LGBTQ community being told they're sick, or they can't raise an effective family? Spearhead studies to show the actual effects of LGBTQ people's lives in society.

Hackers are not limited in the scope of the issues they tackle or the methods they use to solve them. That's why it's crazy that more hackers aren't hired to do public service or work in NGOs... they're the ultimate problem-solvers.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#134

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #127

subsystem wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I can appreciate what you are saying, it's unfortunate that by saying so you're also contributing to the noise that hackers aren't already doing these things, which they are.

I'm not saying that hackers aren't doing those things. But the article tries to paint them out to be morally superior, and in my experience, my hacker buddies are the least likely out of all of my friends to be involved in that sort of thing.

[deleted]

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#135

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:08 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #133

jlgreco wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my problem is that compared to many hackers, I think that technical solutions that hackers might be able to provide are rarely the proper solutions. What are the major problems today? Hunger? Overpopulation and access to family planning? Sanitation? Malaria, and other diseases? LGBT rights? Are any of these things really suffering for lack of hackers proposing technical solutions?

I think perhaps this generation has lost sight of what it means to be a hacker. It isn't about creating a new website. It's about taking a problem, and figuring out a solution, using any and every means. Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a chea…

> Need to genetically engineer some grain to work better in drier climates? Learn just enough molecular biology to make it work. Economically-depressed nations don't distribute contraception effectively? Develop a cheaper alternative or find a way to incentive its use. LGBTQ community being told they're sick, or they can't raise an effective family? Spearhead studies to show the actual effects of LGBTQ people's lives in society.

I'm not talking about "building websites". I'm wondering about problems that have technical solutions, not policy solutions, that require the skills that "hackers" have, but established people in the area do not. If you want to make new grains, invent new contraceptives and fund studies, then there are better people for the job in every case.

It is hubris to think that established genetic engineers are lacking some sort of "hacker spark" that renders them unable to find a solution to that problem. The materials and medical science needed for cheaper contraceptives is not something that needs consult from an external hacker. Sociology doesn't need hackers barging in and demanding more studies about LGBTQ communities, they've got the importance of that one pretty much figured out themselves.

The extent that "hackers" can work on any problem is the extent to which they already are. You are basically just saying "these things need clever people to work on them." Well they already have clever people working on them. Clever people with degrees and/or experience in the subject matter. I consider myself a clever person, and my experience is in software development. Other clever people have experience in medicine, or materials sciences, or just about anything else you can think of. What makes my brand of clever something that they need?

Software development is not filled with some sort of "unique" sort of clever person that the rest of the world is somehow lacking. That sort of thinking is just developer exceptionalism. If the theory is that software development is creating some sort of "brain drain", then perhaps we could talk about policy solutions to drive more clever people into other fields. But I really don't think that there are not enough clever doctors because software development is gobbling up more than its fair share of clever people.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#136

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:25 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

I have, in the past, worked for government - both local and national; as has my wife - (also in the "third sector"). Our collective experience suggests that the public sector is filled more with cynicism than aspiration - the rot that corrodes all long-lived deep hierarchies having long corroded any goodness; any hope; any generosity away. The third sector is a little better; but is so frequently counterproductive; feeding nothing but networks of dependency that one easily despairs of being able to do good in a straightforward way. The world seems designed to frustrate our ambitions and thwart our plans -- we must instead approach doing good sideways; social enterprise being the current great hope.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#137

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:26 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #98

peterwwillis wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, i'm sorry for being dismissive. The industry push toward hybrid and electric cars will definitely be benefited by Tesla's sole engineering prowess, and we will all benefit in at least 20 years. But you bring up another great example! The personal computer. From more efficient personal entertainment to not having to retain information, the personal computer has enriched our lives in countless ways. We would all b…

> Unfortunately, the pollution caused by the production and disposal of personal computers has not only become an ecological disaster, it's destroying the health and habitat of human beings around the globe. The biggest challenge today is not in creating a new gadget, it is how to clean up the damage done by the industry and prevent it from continuing. I am not a fan of the guy, and they don't focus on ecological dam…

I agree the BMGF has done wonderful things. But what specifically are you saying they have offset, and how? I am not very aware of anything they do other than working on malaria and perhaps food/aid assistance. The PC industry has kids living in toxic waste dumps and farms are growing crops and animals with high levels of toxic substances, to say nothing of cancer killing off families in droves.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#138

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:31 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #128

lmm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who has a greater moral character? Someone who puts all their effort into the public service with the skills they have, or someone who has some positive benefit on the public merely incident to his lucrative job? Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. >Inextricable from this evaluation is the fact that the guy who saved 1% of the electricity used at Facebook could probab…

> Surely it's whoever achieved the best outcome, irrespective of how they achieved it. Isn't that an ends justify the means sort of argument?

There are few, even in radical communities like slashdot, that think we as a global community would be better off if Bill Gates never existed. Sure, that is an extreme case, but it serves as an example that the ends certainly can justify the means in this situation.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#139

Post by dalke » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:31 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #79

dalke wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you do not understand my objection. ChikkaChiChi said "We (meaning the tech elite) are first army in human history, ..." What makes this tech army categorically different than that of abolitionists? Don't Barlow, Gilmore, and Kapor, founders of the EFF, count as "wealthy and well-educated members of the ruling classes" just as much as Garrison and Tappan, founders of the American Anti-Slavery Society? "People li…

I actually agree with your opinion, sorry if it wasn't clear :) I was just pointing out that, generally speaking, many movements who were "fighting for our oppressed fellow man" were in fact produced not by the oppressed, but by dissenting elements of the oppressing classes. Not all of them, of course.

Ahh, I didn't understand. I couldn't figure out where "the opposite is true" was supposed to apply.

How do you tell when a movement was produced by the oppressed, but where the strongest and most influential voice that the oppressing class hears is from a dissenting member of that class? Given how quickly Luther's views spread, it can't be that he was the only one who didn't like the actions of the Catholic church.

I still feel that you're walking into a trap. If a member of the oppressed class become notable and influential, then that person's work could be recast as a way to achieve personal power and thereby become part of an oppressing class. If so, then oppression is perpetual until we figure out how to make 7 billion people be equally notable and influential.

How does a dissenting element of the oppressing class ever leave that class?

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#140

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #137

jlgreco wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the pollution caused by the production and disposal of personal computers has not only become an ecological disaster, it's destroying the health and habitat of human beings around the globe. The biggest challenge today is not in creating a new gadget, it is how to clean up the damage done by the industry and prevent it from continuing. I am not a fan of the guy, and they don't focus on ecological dam…

I agree the BMGF has done wonderful things. But what specifically are you saying they have offset, and how? I am not very aware of anything they do other than working on malaria and perhaps food/aid assistance. The PC industry has kids living in toxic waste dumps and farms are growing crops and animals with high levels of toxic substances, to say nothing of cancer killing off families in droves.

If I were given the option: "1) Have the BMGF and an extensive e-waste problem, or 2) Have neither", I would choose 1) without any hesitation. Wouldn't you?

(Of course Bill Gates cannot possibly be held responsible for all e-waste, but suppose that we do for the purposes of this discussion.)