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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#141

Post by jeffasinger »

onebaddude wrote: post #61
taktix wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's becoming a one government world. A New World Order.

I'll never understand the opposition to a single, global, government entity. It seems like the most logical plan. Otherwise, you get multiple countries playing the zero-sum game of gaining at the expense of other countries. Exactly what we have now. You know, like exploiting the resources of poor countries so we can have cheap gasoline. Good system?

I think part of the aversion to a one government world is that it makes it impossible to vote with your feet. With the current model, if things get really bad in your country, you can always leave and find a different government.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#142

Post by saalweachter »

tibbon wrote: post #101
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Interestingly enough though, that 'right to bear arms' actually gives zero protection from the government as theorized- even if the gov't is acting in a corrupt manner. If this guy was in Texas holed up with a small armory, the FBI would still bust in there and arrest him. If he tried to use that small armory (and wasn't killed) it wouldn't have just been him 'exercising his right' of course.

You know, you are on to something there.

What we really have in this country is literally a "right to bear arms". You have no right to fire or wield or use your arms.

I can think of no situation where you could fire upon an agent of the government that would not end badly for you, unless there was a total dissolution of Federal and probably State government. Even acting in self defense, even against a corrupt agent of the government, I can't imagine it ending any way but badly for you. You can't shoot the government a little to make a small change. Either you completely overthrow the government, so that there is no one left to hang you, or you go to jail in the best case, and be executed lawfully or gunned down in the street in the worst case.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#143

Post by rdl »

jebblue wrote: post #114
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

>> I also fail to understand people who so viciously defend the 2nd amendment The definition of "viciously" at: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/viciously "Having the nature of vice; evil, immoral, or depraved." What was vicious about newbie12's comment which was a direct quote from an American President? http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-government-fea...

He was clearly using sense 6, meaning "forcefully"

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#144

Post by jebblue »

stevoski wrote: post #95
powertower wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive th…

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

>> All those things I listed are well-documented.

So are many of the positive events powertower mentioned.

Either way, you don't even live in your own native country let alone the US, you don't have a dog in this hunt.

Oh, and if you think Spain is a good example of a decent place to live; look up those bull runs. Barbaric.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#145

Post by potatolicious »

kyrra wrote: post #118
stevoski wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

powertower did not imply that anything you originally listed as incorrect, but saying that you are looking at a very small part of what the US does. I'm pretty sure we could look at any person or government, find all their past flaws/mistakes and only list this to show that the person is 'evil'. But without looking at the bigger picture of everything they do, you aren't being fair with your judgement of that person/c…

I don't think the idea was to color the US government as "evil" - but rather that the criticism that these are "exceptions" is off base.

In all but one of the examples cited, this was acknowledged, deliberate policy of the government at many levels. Extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without charge, torture, drone strikes, all were known, approved of, and carried out with the assistance of many levels of the central government.

The only example there that can be reasonably cited as an aberration of the norm is the judge taking payoffs for heavy sentences - that's an example of one piece of the machine going rogue.

Sure, the US has done good during all this time as well, but the atrocities cited are not "exceptions", they are a core part of the American government of the past decade.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#146

Post by flyinRyan »

gadders wrote: post #116
zmb_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely,…

As a contrary anecdote, I've travelled to the US many times for business and pleasure. I've never had any feeling I was under surveillance, about to be detained tec.

You may not have had that feeling but you were obviously under surveillance, even before you entered.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#147

Post by freehunter »

randomsearch wrote: post #112
mdesq wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the folks in the Middle East have pretty much demonstrated how this works.

Gun ownership amongst individuals did not lead to the Arab Spring.

But it did lead to an insanely long battle that continued well after the official war was over in not one but two countries. The governments had given up fighting, but the civilians with guns kept US forces under constant attack for ten years.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#148

Post by powertower »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #133
powertower wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I removed the quote because the original source is too controversial, but how exactly do the many and real positive characteristics of a society get outweigh by a few negative and mostly overblown characteristics that are not even characteristics as much as exceptions, and in most cases are simply natural products of ANY and ALL societies (and in other cases just emerge due to the sheer number of overall events)? Tha…

But that's not how societies work. America doesn't have a school shooting problem because all human societies develop shooting problems, it has them because America specifically squeezes its youth in ways that makes them more violent.

> America doesn't have a school shooting problem because all human societies develop shooting problems, it has them because America specifically squeezes its youth in ways that makes them more violent.

That's actually a good point you're making against yourself, because I went to a public school from grades 4-12, and spent 5 years in state college. Not once was a gun fired. And most people will say the same.

What you listed are again exceptions...

America has 300MM people, 400MM guns, some crazy violent demographics, yet the "school shooting" incidence in the last 40 years can be counted on two hands. And from what I've heard, have been steadily decreasing.

Even if they were 10x the rate, they would still be exceptions to the rule.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#149

Post by flyinRyan »

gadders wrote: post #111
gizzlon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Scandinavia and I don't think most people here see the US in the same light as China and Russia. But, OTOTH, I do think most people see Europe as more open than the US. It's not like it's a unique and magical "land of the free" like some people seem to believe.

Any country that requires identity cards (such as France) has already lost its claim to be more free.

Right. Much worse to have identity cards (e.g. SS card) than to actually, you know, massively spy on all your citizens and anyone else you can.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#150

Post by josephlord »

powertower wrote: post #87
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive th…

The exact same comment could be a response to a description of China. The US should hold itself to a higher standard than one where comparisons are with China.
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