Live data from Hacker News

Bullying has to stop, now.

youtube.com

141–150 of 181 posts

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#141
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. For most of the "disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised", as you put it, mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway, as the people you are thinking of have many systemic things running against them in addition any…

"mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway" I disagree that it does nothing. Some people still get the opportunity to better themselves through education, even if it doesn't help everyone. Schools becoming prisons is a weird US phenomenon, I think you have societal issues to tackle that are much bigger than schooling. And it's still better to have kids given access to education under tho…

so "we" have to provide mandatory schooling and a value judgement on what constitutes the "correct" schooling, but "you" have to deal with societal issues.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#142
post #15

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talke…

I don't know. My best friend from growing up was not bullied in any way (we were homeschooled and he was the popular one in our knot), but some sociology class in college made him internalize the notion that "names really do hurt" and it eventually tore our friendship apart. He couldn't differentiate between good-natured ribbing and bullying. I knew this guy for 25 years and "names really do hurt" turned him into a dullard who couldn't hang out with the guys and have a drink.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#143
post #109
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society. [citation needed] ...and on the other hand putting smart kids _willing_ to learn in an uninspiring and oppressive environment. (Bad for their learning and devastating for their still developing personality.) IMHO it's hard to find a worse crime against natural curiosity and willingness than _forcing_ people to do something.

Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know? How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory? YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't…

It was very noticeable to me, by second grade, who was there to learn and who was just there because they were forced to wake up and walk to a bus stop in the morning. While I was lucky enough to be put into some specialty classes based on previous testing I'd done, the majority of my day was still spent sitting next to kids who were literally drying glue in their desks, pouring ink into it to color it and eating it once it dried.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with those kids, they just need a different direction and a little more support.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#144
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True words and good example. It took courage to step up and walk out of the group. I'm trying to communicate to her she is definitely not powerless. I used the example of a cat: Not very big or as powerful as a dog, but you still wouldn't pick it up and mess with it. She doesn't have to be as strong as the bullies, as long as they know she won't tolerate any (physical) abuse.

My oldest didn't suffer unduly at school, but was beat up for a time, unbeknownst to me, by his younger brother. When I found out, he told me he did not defend himself because he knew he would get in trouble. I told him I had never and would never hurt him the way his brother had and he needed to defend himself even if he was grounded for it, that not defending himself was worse than anything I would ever do to him.…

Thumbs up!

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that age-based classes is stupid. But what's the alternative? The idea of classifying 5 year old kids based on any kind of factor scares the hell out of me.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

The idea that bullies are never academically talented is a false dichotomy. The idea that bullies only attack "smart," kids is ludicrous. Thus, ability-based classes would not end bullying in any way.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#146
I have been teaching for about 15 years, with a mix of high school and middle school experience. I also worked for 6 months in an elementary school supporting students behaviorally. I have seen bullying my entire professional life.

I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based problems. So I was not excited when we had to do a workshop based on the Olweus bullying prevention program [1]. I was completely impressed, however. This organization has examined bullying very carefully, and they have used the results of their studies to offer meaningful, concrete steps that can be taken to deal effectively with bullying.

The two clearest things I learned were a good working definition of bullying [2], and a breakdown of the roles that people play in a bullying situation [3]. Bullying is negative behavior aimed at a person who will have difficulty defending themselves; it is repetitive in nature; and it is carried out by someone with an imbalance of power over someone else.

In bullying situations, there are 4 negative roles: bullies, followers, supporters, and passive supporters. There are disengaged onlookers. There is a person who is being bullied, and there may be defenders and potential defenders.

I learned that is often best to give our attention, when interrupting bullying, to the victim. Clearly if there is serious, immediate physical danger, we confront the bully first. But if saying something simple like, "Hey xxx, I don't like the way you're being treated, do you want to take a walk with me?" takes the power away from the bully, and stops giving that person the attention they have been craving. This is not enough; we need to follow up by dealing directly with the bully. But engaging the bully directly just feeds them the attention they want, and gives them more power.

Quick story: My high school classroom looks out on the back of a kindergarten-first grade playground. My students and I watch little kids play all day long. We watch all the misfit kids play at the back, less-watched part of the playground. Most of what we see is low-level shoving, self-regulated by peer groups. I finally saw something I needed to interrupt last week. I watched a kindergarten kid grab another kid by the collar, shove him against a chain link fence, and hold his hand up to the kids face like a gun. I walked over and said, "Hi, my name is Eric, who are you?" to the bullying kid. He let go and got really humble, and said his name. Then I remembered to focus on the victim. He turned around, and he was a classic snot-nosed kid who looked like he'd be picked on a lot. I asked him his name, said it didn't look like he was being treated very well, and talked to him for a few minutes. All of the onlookers gave their attention to the victim, and you could see the bully backing out, not in fear, but because no one was paying attention to him. I did ask the bully before they dispersed, "Do you really want to shoot someone?" He said no, and I said he might want to find another way to play. By the way, if he had run off, I would have gone into the school and found him in his classroom. Those kids need to know that strong, positive adults are watching them.

[1] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page

[2] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answ...

[3] (pdf, page 4) - http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bully...

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#147
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway" I disagree that it does nothing. Some people still get the opportunity to better themselves through education, even if it doesn't help everyone. Schools becoming prisons is a weird US phenomenon, I think you have societal issues to tackle that are much bigger than schooling. And it's still better to have kids given access to education under tho…

so "we" have to provide mandatory schooling and a value judgement on what constitutes the "correct" schooling, but "you" have to deal with societal issues.

"we" in most western countries do tend to provide schooling to our children and make it mandatory

"you" in America seem to have some extra problems in this area, which I still don't think overshadows the benefits

Yes, problem?

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#148
post #131
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll ju…

> My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves. The ri…

This is absolutely correct. I remember all too well when my graphing calculator was stolen from me during a movie in religion class (high school freshman year, catholic all boys school). I was socially inept and naturally, the first thing I did was tell the teacher. He asked the class who had taken it and waited a few minutes. When no one said anything, he said something like "Well, I can't keep them from their next class."

A few weeks later, a guy I knew had his stolen in English class, but he got it back by standing by the door at the end of class and asking people individually who had taken it as the other students left.

And I remember how in the months and years after that, if tricks were played on me in class, the kids would laugh at me and the teachers would stand at the front looking lost and doing nothing. Going through the proper channels doesn't do shit.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#149
post #131
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll ju…

> My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves. The ri…

Physical violence never helps. You'll just get in trouble for attacking them.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#150
Fantastic! A great call to action.

But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person.

To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying?

Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.

Post reply on HN