Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

heise.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 282 posts

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#141

Post by cynicalsecurity »

DocTomoe wrote: post #96
cynicalsecurity wrote: post #28

Local governments are likely to block the initiative. We need a Polish based messenger that won't bend to chat control fascist initiatives.

Nothing is brought to the Commission that local governments do not secretly want, but publically rage against because the voters are against it. When Brussles then decides, 'there's nothing we can do, it's an EU thing' ... and a moustache-twirl. The only thing that can stop this is to completely dismantle the EU. Which means, unfortunately, voting for people any good person should rightfully despise.

Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house to get rid of flies. That is absolutely not the right solution. Without the EU, chat control would already have been implemented in its worst form everywhere, just as it already is in the UK. The UK left the EU and implemented its own version of chat control.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#143

Post by iamnothere »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #126
poly2it wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority (72%) of European citizens are opposed to Chat control. Regardless, the proposal has been brought up and rejected relentlessly, mostly by action of politicians (commissioners) who are not directly elected to begin with. We have more than enough reasons to be furious. https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/poll-72-of-citizens-oppose-...

What you have to understand about issue polling is that it's very easy to get whatever results you want if you simply instruct the pollster to ask in absurd ways. This was the question posed to respondents: > EUR02a. Some politicians are calling for the automatic searching of all personal electronic mail and messages of each citizen for presumed suspect content in the search for child pornography. Suspected cases wil…

Since you don’t consider that “good faith” I have rephrased it for you, in a format you may prefer:

> EUR02a. In the interest of protecting children, some politicians are calling for the automatic searching of all personal electronic mail and messages of each EU subject in the search for dangerous, illegal child pornography. Suspected cases will be notified to the police. An advantage of this could be that more offenders are caught and children protected. According to activists who defend child pornographers, police reports indicate that a few innocent people may be mildly inconvenienced due to unreliable processes. Please place yourself in the position of a law enforcement official trying to catch these evil people, who is currently obstructed due to false questions of “rights” and “privacy.” What is your opinion?

I jest, of course, I’m sure you would prefer something more straightforward and less manipulative like “EUR02a. Do you support child pornography?”

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#144

Post by ClumsyPilot »

iknowstuff wrote: post #84
pigpop wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a choice between China and the EU at this point I would choose to live in China.

ok lol objectively poor choice but go right ahead

What objective measurement is that?

We have spent 20 years criticising China for the great firewall and control of social media, but now are adopting similar laws ourselves.

There is significant probability that China will have better quality of life than Europe in 2045 and that very little will be left of European liberties

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#145

Post by gmueckl »

cherryteastain wrote: post #107

Reminder that EU institutions were designed from ground up to smother democracy: - Members of EU Parliament cannot propose regulation, only the unelected Commission can, MEPs can only vote yes/no - EU Parliament is the only parliament in the world where an absolute 50%+1 is needed to reject a bill, ignoring how many MEPs are present/voting. In every other parliament, a quorum requirement plus a majority vote is neede…

This is all fixable by changing the treaties. The first step to fixing it, however, is to give up fundamental opposition to its existence and instead support the underlying ideals and approach the shortcomings from a constructive angle.

The alternative is feeding nationalistic right wing extremism, which we really don't want in Europe.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#146

Post by ClumsyPilot »

Calazon wrote: post #127
shevy-java wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think the term applies very well. That there are worse dictatorships does not really nullify the statement. Even "democracies" have death penalties and commit to genocide. See the USA as an example here. One can always reason that there are worse countries in this regard - nobody rejects that either. We need to have a much more nuanced view on democracy. The EU presently is not one.

If the decision-makers are elected by the people, it's not a dictatorship, no matter how many atrocities the nation commits. You can have some gray area I guess, with unfair elections or whatever, but when the bad decisions are made by leaders who keep on getting re-elected in reasonably fair elections, we do not have a dictatorship.

Many dictators were democratically elected, this is not a sensible approach.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#147

Post by gmueckl »

big85 wrote: post #69
miroljub wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just assume the worst: all your private messages would be read and shared between all governments and corporations in the world.

No, I want to know specifically.

As I understand it, chat platforms provider will not be held in violation of the data privacy laws if they add automatic detection and reporting of unlawful content to their platforms. E.G. a CSAM detector in a client app for an end-to-end-encrypted messaging service would be lawful.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#148

Post by iamnothere »

mikestorrent wrote: post #62
chrystalkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

It's mostly a lack of properly descriptive words in the language. I think "totalitarian liberalism" or the "managerial state" is probably closer to what we're talking about here. Power is not concentrated in one individual; responsibility and accountability are diffused so far that it is impossible to find someone who actually can do or change anything. "Rational systems" of business process and rigour serve to remov…

The current term seems to be “guided democracy” (formerly “managed democracy”): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy

Although I’d argue it is often just as much a failed technocracy.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#149

Post by gmueckl »

musha68k wrote: post #71

This is the anti-EU move but they simply don't understand that. Authoritarian centralization efforts need to be fought Huang style - with an European twist - as we might be behind on a lot of axis but we "Didn't Wake Up a Loser". China / US leadership must not be the carte-blanche to formalize whatever low bar in how we handle our own privacy; going straight for the "self own" I guess? Sorry for prompt mode but I hop…

Huang style? What does this mean?

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#150

Post by cess11 »

wongarsu wrote: post #41
aaomidi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH modern dictatorships are a lot less obvious in the way you describing. There are dictatorships, where a very select few people have absolute power, but there’s no visible dictator. Iran is a country like this. There’s no visible dictator. It’s a game of power between the clergy, the military, and the civil government.

Those are more like aristocracies or oligarchies than dictatorships though. Though maybe those are not the best descriptions of Iran either

There is a long tradition of calling rule without care for the ruled 'tyranny'. Aristotle considered this the worst perversion of the best form of government, i.e. monarchy.
Post reply on HN