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Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

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Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#61

Post by poly2it »

soco wrote: post #30
iamnothere wrote: post #2

From a post on Mastodon: > democracy is when you repeatedly push for unpopular laws until they pass, and the more times you do it the more democratic it is It is unlikely that 60 additional “no” votes can be found by Thursday to stop this.

So basically the people we elected will vote yes. How's that undemocratic? Because the majority doesn't vote the way I like it? I'm not even ironic, I truly don't understand those comments. You get what you voted for, garbage in garbage out.

The vast majority (72%) of European citizens are opposed to Chat control. Regardless, the proposal has been brought up and rejected relentlessly, mostly by action of politicians (commissioners) who are not directly elected to begin with. We have more than enough reasons to be furious.

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/poll-72-of-citizens-oppose-...

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#62

Post by mikestorrent »

chrystalkey wrote: post #15
miroljub wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

It's mostly a lack of properly descriptive words in the language. I think "totalitarian liberalism" or the "managerial state" is probably closer to what we're talking about here. Power is not concentrated in one individual; responsibility and accountability are diffused so far that it is impossible to find someone who actually can do or change anything. "Rational systems" of business process and rigour serve to remove individual wisdom and intuition from the equation entirely. Adding AI on top of this will probably only further entrench it - walls of words protecting people from really improving anything meaningfully.

In some ways, the concentration of power in a dictatorship might be better, if the dictator was well morally aligned with the people. Trouble is, the people are seldom even morally aligned with each other in a unified way, so a dictator cannot easily represent their conflicting interests. Representative democracy does at least take a step towards solving that issue.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#64

Post by isodev »

CrisMystik wrote: post #57
isodev wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how democratic of the EU Well, these are the MEPs elected by member states. We don’t like the outcome but this means chat control is well supported within the government of each country.

MEPs are directly elected by citizens, not governments. It's the Council instead where representatives (ministers) of all national governments sit

Yup, edited to clarify I mean the MEPs bring “the will of the people”. Clearly not enough has happened on local level to raise awareness / lobby against chat control. I don’t think many outside tech are even aware if the slippery slope of the surveillance machinery.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#65

Post by miroljub »

tadasZ wrote: post #55

i'm so tired of this bs, these elected people act as tsars, even when said NO they try again and again while employing shady tactics and there is no way of punishing these a*holes. Elections exist, but when same 35% (number taken out of butt, but point is - it's low) of people vote we get same sh t who elects same sh t to EU. And i don't know about other countries, but my country sends complete degenerates to EU, lik…

> ... these elected people act as tsars, ...

They are not elected. Even the EU is illegal, since joining the EU was rejected by people of many European countries, but that was ignored.

They just do what they want and do thorough media coverage. In rare cases that doesn't work, people just dissapear.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#67

Post by wongarsu »

khurs wrote: post #44
wongarsu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the British approach In Germany it's usually the other way around: the EU tries to force us to do objectively good things, while national and regional governments drag their feet implementing EU law or complying with regulations. We regularly have headlines about how we might have to pay fines to the EU, and every time it's for something where the EU seems clearly on the morally right side And all that despite…

"In Germany it's usually the other way around:" Germany is one of most wealthy, powerful and biggest contributors to the EU budget. They can't be bullied round easily. "We regularly have headlines about how we might have to pay fines to the EU" The state controls the media... a lot of headlines are orchestrated. But it is done so well, unless you know, you don't know... Where Germany doesn't agree, it has sway. Where…

Sure, but all of those used to be true of the UK too back when they were in the EU, and yet they had the good cop/bad cop roles swapped compared to Germany

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#68

Post by mikestorrent »

iamnothere wrote: post #53
harrisoned wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Centralized messaging services won't last long, their capture is sadly inevitable. In the long run, only self-hosted/decentralized protocols can resist what's coming. Very much. I also fear they coming for this, we already have instances of where using secure alternatives tags you as a criminal[0], so i don't doubt a future where non-approved applications will get you in trouble. With everything happening around An…

This is why you should be building parallel networks and even institutions, as the Czechs did under Soviet rule (look up “Parallel Polis”). Mutual aid will become critical.

The trouble is that most conventional ways of building a new service are trivial to block. What is needed now is unstoppable messaging and social networking built on top of existing services and protocols that won't be blocked right away, services with more legal protection - like email with GPG, or some kind of steganographically encrypted layer on top of Instagram.

Imagine all I ever posted was cat pics... unless I have your public key and then all of a sudden those pics are decoded into messages of dissent

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#69

Post by big85 »

miroljub wrote: post #59
big85 wrote: post #48

The Wikipedia entry on Chat Control doesn't go into enough detail on what exactly it does , only the history of its legislative process. Can someone update it?

Just assume the worst: all your private messages would be read and shared between all governments and corporations in the world.

No, I want to know specifically.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#70

Post by iamnothere »

mikestorrent wrote: post #68
iamnothere wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why you should be building parallel networks and even institutions, as the Czechs did under Soviet rule (look up “Parallel Polis”). Mutual aid will become critical.

The trouble is that most conventional ways of building a new service are trivial to block. What is needed now is unstoppable messaging and social networking built on top of existing services and protocols that won't be blocked right away, services with more legal protection - like email with GPG, or some kind of steganographically encrypted layer on top of Instagram. Imagine all I ever posted was cat pics... unless I…

I am speaking beyond services, you need allies who are willing to come to each other’s aid, especially financially, but also for things like physically relaying data from place to place if that is ever needed. And for more mundane things like watching your house when you are out of town. Offline networks are going to become much more critical.
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