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Can we have the day off?

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Re: Can we have the day off?

#141

Post by whatshisface »

ikr678 wrote: post #133
whatshisface wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working out why the workweek is 5 days, non-negotiably, even if you'd be willing to be paid less in proportion, comes down to realizing that it's being maximized subject to the constraint that everybody would flip out if it was 6, and then working out why it's being maximized. What it's telling you is that a company would rather have 4 people working 5 days a week than 5 people working 4 days a week. The reason for t…

Its not a communication overhead, it's that business owners want to maximise their returns on their fixed operating costs subject to the 5 day limit. One extra staff member in a traditional office is extra software license, extra seating, extra hardware, extra HR/payroll/insurance, extra risk, extra training etc etc. Remember to thank your unions for the weekend.

If it was utilization of fixed capital that motivated the maximum-length workweek of today and centuries past, they wouldn't mind who was on the shifts or how many so long as there were three of them.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#143

Post by esafak »

Workers need to have more leverage for them to be able to independently assert their working hours. People with such luxury become contractors or proprietors. The rest need collective bargaining.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#144

Post by quantummagic »

bigbuppo wrote: post #64
yadaeno wrote: post #19

You can have the day off. Don't think for a million years you will be paid for it.

Exactly. In the four days that you worked you produced 40 days of output, so you should get 40x the pay. It would be unreasonable for the company to pay you 50x what you were getting before... they do have shareholders to think about after all.

What are you talking about? Four days work = four days of output, by definition.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#145

Post by madrox »

ranyume wrote: post #76
madrox wrote: post #65

The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose. It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it. The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, a…

What do you mean? You just need to ban companies from doing 5 days work.

Amusingly, there is literally not even a 7 day work week ban for companies in the US. You can require employees work every day. Employers are just required to pay employees overtime under various conditions beyond 40 hours / five days a week, which is why you don't see it.

And what's more, software engineers are exempt from these rules because of their pay grades. If you're a SWE making a salary the odds are your employer could require you work on Saturdays without running afowl of labor laws.

This is all powered by norms.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#146

Post by dozerly »

chipsrafferty wrote: post #62
kingforaday wrote: post #28

This is certainly a fun exercise in economics. By taking a shortened work-week, should the companies then pay us 80% of our current comp? Or maybe a little less since they will have to pay for the added tokens we are now using as part of our job that we used to do manually (i.e. time)? Or perhaps we are able to justify that now they can save overhead by reducing facilities costs by 20% as well. Oh but maybe their bus…

If I am able to do 10x work with a tool that costs you Y, then my wages should rise by 10x - Y. Then, let's do a 3 day work week and multiply it by 0.6. Pretty simple math

Sure, unless others are willing to do your job for less than that.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#147

Post by ux266478 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #69
passive wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not generally true in the US over the last 40 years, where the gains from productivity increases have been accumulated almost entirely by the top classes. Yes, lower classes have access to many more conveniences then they might have had in earlier decades, but they are working far more hours, and their expected lifespan has started decreasing.

my dad grew up in a house without running water in a town where everyone worked in a mine and the lead was everywhere. he hitchiked to alaska for seasonal work in a fish cannery. Yeah I don't know... i think things are better than they were 40 years ago.

Things are better for you than your dad, presumably. Unfortunately, many Americans still live like that, so the conclusion doesn't hold water.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#148

Post by whatshisface »

majormajor wrote: post #140
whatshisface wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "flipping out" aspect is something that does not seem to have a lot to do with technology at this time or in the past.

>The "flipping out" aspect is something that does not seem to have a lot to do with technology at this time or in the past. How so? Without technology we wouldn't have a "work week" in the first place and work would be much more directly tied to survival of the community and generally less negotiable in the first place. The "flipping out" came about precisely because technology changed what work was and what the cond…

The past had slaves too. The feudal arrangement of tenant farmers was only one system of labor. I don't think union bargaining was ever tied to specific advances in technology.

Re: Can we have the day off?

#149

Post by bluegatty »

tredre3 wrote: post #98
bluegatty wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we are very well past post-scarcity. we definitely choose consumption over free time for the most part. people generally choose nicer home, starbucks, vacay, neflix over work hours or retirement. so this is a cultural issue

We are very well past the point where technology could allow post-scarcity. Post-scarcity is no longer technological problem, it's a political one. But it's still very much a problem, so no, we are not anywhere near post-scarcity. I also don't understand the point you're making about people wanting to spend $15 on netflix or $12 on a coffee. Would everybody cutting netflix and lattes allow us to live in that utopia m…

Yes, dropping consumption would immediately allow us to work 2-3 days a week.

It's far more a cultural problem than political.

We starting hitting post-scarcity at the start of the 19th century, towards the end of the industrial revolution [1]

We were growing enough food, housing is actually not that expensive, we were 'starting to not need that much more'.

This is when we started marketing consumption to the population - it was the only way to grow the economy.

We have far, far more than we need for basic satiety.

It's not quite so simple though - many innovations that we 'truly want', like medicines and health tech - come out of the economy as a whole and would not be possible were that the only hugely important sector.

We work 5 days on 2 days off because that's the very strongly entrenched social contract, it's the 'labour equilibrium'.

No amount of tech or AI will change that - unless we collectively agree to change the rules.

The social contract is slightly different in different countries, and nobody seems to have figured out how to work on 2-3 days, I believe that we mostly prefer the way it is. Maybe 4 day weeks would be more amenable.

But the marginal income from the 4th day ... I think people would prefer to work it rather than not.

[1] https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/a-brief-history-of-consum...

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