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Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

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Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#141

Post by orbital-decay »

LtWorf wrote: post #129
fluffybucktsnek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate.

Wine has constant regressions. What works fine today will completely fail next year. Which is why steam lets you pick which proton version you want to use. Which means that a .exe without the exact version of wine won't run. Plus of course there's the whole vulkan stuff. Older cards aren't well supported but it will rather crash than just run openGL normally where it would work fine.

In practice, Wine is constantly improving. It's in active development and not that stable, but regressions are mostly local. Treat its releases like bleeding edge.

>What works fine today will completely fail next year.

Usually not on the timescale of a year. I have many new games that worked a year ago and none of these stopped working now. The worst breakage I had recently was some physics glitches in an old RPG (released in 2001) on Wine 11.0, and it was fixed in the next release.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#142

Post by coldpie »

RachelF wrote: post #119
tombert wrote: post #16

Wine is a project that I've grown a near-infinite level of respect for. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the work for Wine is boring and thankless. Digging through and trying to get exact parity with both the documented and undocumented behavior of Windows for the past 30 years doesn't sound fun, but it's finding every little weird edge case that makes Wine a viable product. The fact that Wine runs…

It is a superb project, and a hard thing to do. It is a pity that the apps most business people use everyday, like Word and Excel and Outlook don't work in it (Excel 2010 is the last version that has Platinum status). It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.

> It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.

Games are mostly just doing their own thing, only interacting with the system for input & output. MS Office is using every single corner of Windows: every feature in the XML libraries, tons of .NET type stuff, all the OLE and COM and typelib and compound storage features, tons of Explorer integrations, auto-updating stuff via Windows patching mechanisms... there's almost no corner of the Windows OS that MS Office doesn't use.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#143

Post by gpderetta »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #123
hu3 wrote: post #15

> Dirt 3 went from 110.6 FPS to 860.7 FPS > Resident Evil 2 jumped from 26 FPS to 77 FPS > Call of Juarez went from 99.8 FPS to 224.1 FPS > Tiny Tina's Wonderlands saw gains from 130 FPS to 360 FPS Amazing. I don't understand the low level details on how such a massive speed gain was ripe for the picking but I welcome! I guess thanks Valve for pouring money into Proton.

So, what's the relationship between Wine and Proton? Is Proton just the SteamOS/Valve name for it, or is it actually it's own project?

More or less Wine + some experimental patches not yet I twgrated in mainstream wine + a buch of DirectX translation libraries + close steam integration.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#145

Post by topspin »

lifis wrote: post #77

It seems like it would be possible to implement this in userspace using shared memory to store the data structures and using just one eventfd per thread to park/unpark (or a futex if not waiting for anything else), which should be fully correct and have similar or faster performance, at the cost of not being secure or robust against process crashes (which isn't a big problem for more Wine usage). It seems that neithe…

> It seems like it would be possible to implement this in userspace using shared memory

It is not. Perhaps this should be possible, but Linux doesn't provide userspace facilities that would be necessary to do this entirely in userspace.

This is not merely an API shim that allows Windows binary object to dynamically link and run. It’s an effort to recreate the behavior of NT kernel synchronization and waiting semantics. To do this, Linux kernel synchronization primitives and scheduler API must be used. You can read the code[1] and observe that this is a compatibility adapter that relies heavily on Linux kernel primitives and their coordination with the kernel scheduler. No approach using purely user space synchronization primitives can do this both efficiently and accurately.

[1] https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/misc/n...

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#146

Post by __natty__ »

Rick76 wrote: post #90
zerr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grass is always greener on the other side - many low-level programmers feel like an imposter when it comes to high-level systems such as CRUD apps.

Can confirm, my buddy who is someone I respect immensely, is an embedded programmer. He will talk about OS events, or any low level concept and it makes me feel like I don’t know anything, but he acts like I’m a genius if I talk about JavaScript Runtimes, browser engines, anything frontend. It’s cool he teaches me new things, I teach him some

Some people are exceptional at solving difficult but hard to explain problems while other are great solving direct business problems. No need to feel ashamed for both it’s just different work

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#147

Post by ssl-3 »

p_ing wrote: post #7
ticulatedspline wrote: post #4

Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.

OS/2 part deux

Sorta, kinda, but not really.

OS/2 may have been a better Windows than Windows during the Warp days 30-ish years ago. It was also a very competent operating system in its own right.

We all know the story:

It never had a broad base of native applications. It could have happened, but it did not happen. Like, back then when Usenet was the primary way of conducting written online discourse, the best newsreader I had on OS/2 was a Windows program; the ones that ran natively on OS/2 weren't even close.

And OS/2 never had support from a popular company. There were times at OS/2's peak (such as it was) when it was essentially impossible to buy a new computer with OS/2 pre-installed and working correctly even from IBM.

Linux, though? Over those same 30-ish years, a huge amount of native applications have been written. Tons of day-to-day stuff can be done very well in Linux without even a hint of Wine and that's been reality for quite a long time now.

The missing piece, if there is one, is gaming. It'd be great to have more native games and fewer abstraction layers. But systems like Valve's popular Steam Deck and upcoming Steam Machine are positive aspects that OS/2 never had an equivalent to. And since Steam is very nearly ubiquitous, companies that sell computer game software do pay attention to what Valve is doing in this space.

(And frankly, when a game runs great in some Steam/Wine/Proton/Vulkan shapeshifting slime mold abstraction stack, I really do not care that it isn't running natively. I push the button and receive candy.)

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#148

Post by ToucanLoucan »

gpderetta wrote: post #143
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what's the relationship between Wine and Proton? Is Proton just the SteamOS/Valve name for it, or is it actually it's own project?

More or less Wine + some experimental patches not yet I twgrated in mainstream wine + a buch of DirectX translation libraries + close steam integration.

That makes sense. I thought they were entirely separate tbh but it makes sense that they'd share a lot of DNA.

I absolutely love my Ally running SteamOS. Incredible work by... everyone involved, really.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#149

Post by joe_mamba »

coldpie wrote: post #142
RachelF wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a superb project, and a hard thing to do. It is a pity that the apps most business people use everyday, like Word and Excel and Outlook don't work in it (Excel 2010 is the last version that has Platinum status). It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.

> It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games. Games are mostly just doing their own thing, only interacting with the system for input & output. MS Office is using every single corner of Windows: every feature in the XML libraries, tons of .NET type stuff, all the OLE and COM and typelib and compound storage features, tons of Explorer integrations, auto-updating stuff via Windows patching mechan…

You're onto something but that's not entirely true for all games. There's plenty of vintage games, made before DirectX standardized everything into the late 90s, that don't work well under wine because back in their day, they would try to bypass windows by "hacking" their way to the hardware via unsupported APIs and hooks, to squeeze every bit of performance from the hardware, and also because every hardware vendor back then from graphics to sound shipped their own APIs.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#150

Post by charcircuit »

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #81
charcircuit wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other operating system works like this. Supporting older versions of an OS or runtime with a compiler toolchain a standard expectation of developers.

what about mac os?

The latest Xcode supports targeting back to macOS 11. This covers >99% of macs which is acceptable for most developers.

https://developer.apple.com/support/xcode/

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