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Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

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Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#61

Post by charcircuit »

akdev1l wrote: post #35
krastanov wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wine's APIs are more stable than Linux's APIs, so it seems more plausible to me that Wine will become the first class target itself.

People always say this to shit on glibc meanwhile those guys bend over backwards to provide strong API compatibilities. It rubs me off the wrong way. What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version. Such application could be rebuilt to work with an older glibc as the API is stable. The ABI is not which is why the application w…

No other operating system works like this. Supporting older versions of an OS or runtime with a compiler toolchain a standard expectation of developers.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#62

Post by nurettin »

irishcoffee wrote: post #46
zerr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grass is always greener on the other side - many low-level programmers feel like an imposter when it comes to high-level systems such as CRUD apps.

They don't. The "simplicity" of using a "high-level" framework for someone who bit-shifts for a living is almost comical.

I met someone who bit shifts for life, uses opengl shaders for compute, but has no sql experience and is afraid of opening a tcp socket.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#63

Post by bombcar »

chistev wrote: post #51
irishcoffee wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't. The "simplicity" of using a "high-level" framework for someone who bit-shifts for a living is almost comical.

Really?

I know literal kernel developers who can handle drivers and race conditions any day of the week who can't wrap their mind around Outlook, let alone GUI updates.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#64

Post by LtWorf »

orbital-decay wrote: post #21
ticulatedspline wrote: post #4

Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.

Unlikely. Games need a stable ABI and Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux.

People who keep parroting this clearly have no experience of gaming on linux.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#65

Post by foresto »

akdev1l wrote: post #48
foresto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people? What mainstream Linux distros ship without fsync or esync support?

Well I can tell you that if it didn’t make it upstream Fedora didn’t ship it. It looks there was a copr for a custom kernel-fsync and projects like Bazzite or Nobara are adding patches. From my understanding the fsync patches were never upstreamed.

The common gaming-focused Wine/Proton builds can also use esync (eventfd-based synchronization). IIRC, it doesn't need a patched kernel.

The point being that these massive speed gains will probably not be seen by most people as you suggest, because most Linux gamers already have access to either esync or fsync.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#66

Post by akdev1l »

charcircuit wrote: post #61
akdev1l wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this to shit on glibc meanwhile those guys bend over backwards to provide strong API compatibilities. It rubs me off the wrong way. What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version. Such application could be rebuilt to work with an older glibc as the API is stable. The ABI is not which is why the application w…

No other operating system works like this. Supporting older versions of an OS or runtime with a compiler toolchain a standard expectation of developers.

Plenty of operating systems work like this. Just not highly commercial ones because proprietary software is the norm on those.

From a bit of research it looks like FreeBSD for example only provides a stable ABI within minor versions and I imagine if you build something for FreeBSD 14 it won’t work on 13.

Stable ABI literally only benefits software where the user doesn’t have the source. Any operating system which assumes you have the source will not prioritize it.

(Edit: actually thinking harder MacOS/iOS is actually much worse on binary compatibility, as for example Intel binaries will stop working entirely due to M-cpu transition - Apple just hits developers with a stick to rebuild their apps)

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#67

Post by HerbManic »

krastanov wrote: post #8
ticulatedspline wrote: post #4

Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.

Wine's APIs are more stable than Linux's APIs, so it seems more plausible to me that Wine will become the first class target itself.

Ever since Proton came along, it has been a quiet agreement that Win32 APIs are the best target for Linux support.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#68

Post by dmitrygr »

adelmotsjr wrote: post #5

Reading these posts always make me feel like an imposter. People are dealing with such low level things, while i'm outta here building simple CRUDs.

Play with low level things. It'll help you in your daily job in ways you do not yet imagine. Start here: nandgame.com

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#69

Post by akdev1l »

foresto wrote: post #65
akdev1l wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I can tell you that if it didn’t make it upstream Fedora didn’t ship it. It looks there was a copr for a custom kernel-fsync and projects like Bazzite or Nobara are adding patches. From my understanding the fsync patches were never upstreamed.

The common gaming-focused Wine/Proton builds can also use esync (eventfd-based synchronization). IIRC, it doesn't need a patched kernel. The point being that these massive speed gains will probably not be seen by most people as you suggest, because most Linux gamers already have access to either esync or fsync.

Maybe you are right about esync but anyway I would also gather a lot of people don’t have that either. At least personally I don’t bother with custom proton builds or whatever so if Valve didn’t enable that on their build then I don’t have it.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#70

Post by hungryhobbit »

dinkblam wrote: post #3

it seems if you want the same on macOS, this is the place to contribute: https://github.com/Alien4042x/Wine-NTsync-Userspace-macOS-ba...

But does anyone care about MacOS? ;)

I mean, I know Mac has had some great games (eg. I spent so much time on school Macs playing that Bolo tank game) ... but they have probably <1% of the number of games Windows has. I'd expect a simiilar percentage of devs to be interested in Mace (or whatever you call Mac Wine).

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