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Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

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Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#141

Post by sunaookami »

robbbbbbbbbbbb wrote: post #105
hiprob wrote: post #59

Are they going to conduct an uncontrolled human experiment by requiring age checks to use the Internet (read: surveillance capitalism and Orwellian lack of privacy)?

No, they’ll probably just follow Australia’s lead[1] of: default allow; algorithmic age estimation; account suspend; ID to unblock. Chill. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyp9d3ddqyo.amp

So yes, you will need to show your ID which will connect to your account and obviously be used to surveil everything you post online. People on HN of all places need to stop being so naive.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#142

Post by Aurornis »

andix wrote: post #98

Modern social media is nothing like social media in early days (myspace, early Facebook and even early Instagram). Back then it was a platform to communicate with friends, and maybe even find new friends to meet up with. Today social media is more like a drug, to keep the user engaged and to push content to them. The content must either be addictive/engaging or paid advertisements. Quality of the content doesn't matt…

> Probably even Reddit - which does have an algorithm to show specific content - is not as bad.

I'm surprised Reddit gets a pass or borderline pass in social media discussions.

In my experience working with kids, Reddit was the worst of the social media platforms for mental health. By far. The kids who were into Reddit were always spouting off information they got from Reddit and had soul-crushing amounts of cynicism about the world. On top of that, they had a chip on their shoulder about it all, believing that Reddit was a superior source of truth about the world.

The whole experience caught me off guard because going into this I mostly heard about the stereotypical social media dangers that get talked about, like boys following Andrew Tate and such. Instead the biggest problem was Redditors on a fast path to doomerism.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#143

Post by rhines »

tedmiston wrote: post #129
api wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really social media at all and we should stop calling it that. I call them chum feeds or scrollers. There’s no social component. It’s just addictive short form infinite scroll brain rot. Social media deserving of the name is almost dead. It’s not that profitable and the sites are expensive to run.

likes and comments aren't social?

Not if there's no reputation. If you see someone liked your post and then you go check out their posts, or if people recognize commenters and remember things about them, then it's social. Think engaging with friends on Facebook or participating in a hobby forum. But there's nothing social about engaging with a popular Reddit post or some celebrity's Twitter feed.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#144

Post by andix »

tedmiston wrote: post #129
api wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really social media at all and we should stop calling it that. I call them chum feeds or scrollers. There’s no social component. It’s just addictive short form infinite scroll brain rot. Social media deserving of the name is almost dead. It’s not that profitable and the sites are expensive to run.

likes and comments aren't social?

Only on the most shallow level. Early Facebook was like meeting up with friends. Modern social media is like shouting at strangers on the street.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#145

Post by hackyhacky »

whatever1 wrote: post #132
john01dav wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit is plenty addictive in my experience, and I've heard the same from other people ranging from high school teachers to tradespeople.

Hackernews is also addictive. Fortnine is addictive. World of Warcraft is addictive. NFL is addictive. Addiction does not strike to me as a unique trait of the social media. The echo chamber bubble on the other hand, seems quite unique.

> The echo chamber bubble on the other hand, seems quite unique.

More specifically: using "engagement" as the metric to optimize.

Users' use of content is measured: how long do they watch it? Do they leave a comment? Do they give a "like"? Based on that, the algorithm finds similar content that will elicit an even stronger response.

Every action you take on modern social media is giving information to your drug dealer so they can make the next hit even better. But not better for you; better for the social media, who make money from ads.

The continuously adaptive nature of the input stream as a basis for keeping users' eyeballs leashed to ads is what separates FB, Tiktok, Instagram, and Youtube from the more benign, but still addictive alternatives (HN, Fortnite, WoW, NFL, Reddit).

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#146

Post by XorNot »

tedmiston wrote: post #119
andix wrote: post #98

Modern social media is nothing like social media in early days (myspace, early Facebook and even early Instagram). Back then it was a platform to communicate with friends, and maybe even find new friends to meet up with. Today social media is more like a drug, to keep the user engaged and to push content to them. The content must either be addictive/engaging or paid advertisements. Quality of the content doesn't matt…

reddit having tons of niche subreddits and the ability to sort them by best all time is one of my favorite ways to filter for higher-quality content. (i don't use the main feed much.)

I'd argue it's closer to the ability to search it with Google to get alright non-clickfarm responses to questions, or product reviews.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#147

Post by sunaookami »

SkipperCat wrote: post #107
logicchains wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are downvoted, but you are totally right. Humans are not meant to cry daily over stuff that happens half a world away You mean humans are not meant to learn about the atrocities their government is funding half a world away.

Social media is not designed to keep you informed. Its designed to keep you engaged because that helps them sell ads. And the best way to keep you engaged is to keep you enraged. I've seen in the US how social media has been used push false narratives, hate and other falsehoods. Its toxic. If you really want to stay informed, there are plenty of newspapers, NGOs and other organizations out there reporting the truth.

>If you really want to stay informed, there are plenty of newspapers, NGOs and other organizations out there reporting the truth.

And they don't report on that kind of stuff because they either support it themselves or are indirectly funded by the government.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#148

Post by andix »

Aurornis wrote: post #142
andix wrote: post #98

Modern social media is nothing like social media in early days (myspace, early Facebook and even early Instagram). Back then it was a platform to communicate with friends, and maybe even find new friends to meet up with. Today social media is more like a drug, to keep the user engaged and to push content to them. The content must either be addictive/engaging or paid advertisements. Quality of the content doesn't matt…

> Probably even Reddit - which does have an algorithm to show specific content - is not as bad. I'm surprised Reddit gets a pass or borderline pass in social media discussions. In my experience working with kids, Reddit was the worst of the social media platforms for mental health. By far. The kids who were into Reddit were always spouting off information they got from Reddit and had soul-crushing amounts of cynicism…

thanks for that insight

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#149

Post by quotemstr »

constantcrying wrote: post #133

This is of course a trend in many western countries. With some, like the UK and Australia, leading the way. At this point I do not think it is reasonable to deny the harm that certain modes of social interactions over the internet have caused. At the same time these bans should not be considered reasonable options. They exist to cover for the decade of inaction of politicians in addressing youth dissatisfaction and d…

> At this point I do not think it is reasonable to deny the harm that certain modes of social interactions over the internet have caused

Yes, it is reasonable to doubt the purported harms are real, because

1) I've yet to see evidence that the medium is the problem,

2) people keep telling me that they don't need evidence because the harms are obvious, and

3) I have an strong prior, as an American, that anyone preventing people sharing ideas with each other is a villain of history.

The furor over youth social media has all the hallmarks of a moral panic, including over-reliance of weak evidence, personal attacks against skeptics, and socially disruptive remedies of dubious efficiency, the collateral damage of which people justify by pointing to harms to children they say, falsely, are obvious and ongoing.

I'm not convinced that these social media bans are solving a real problem. The more people breathlessly tell me I'm a bad person for asking for evidence of the alleged harms, the more I think it's a public mania, not a civilizational problem.

It really doesn't help that it'd be suspiciously convenient for the worst actors in power if sharing ideas on the internet required ID.

Re: Finland looks to introduce Australia-style ban on social media

#150

Post by hackyhacky »

XorNot wrote: post #138
whatever1 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackernews is also addictive. Fortnine is addictive. World of Warcraft is addictive. NFL is addictive. Addiction does not strike to me as a unique trait of the social media. The echo chamber bubble on the other hand, seems quite unique.

Hacker News has plenty of its own echo chamber, no different to any other social environment.

> Hacker News has plenty of its own echo chamber, no different to any other social environment.

Sure, but fwiw the HN echo chamber is organic. People choose to interact with people who have similar opinions, as they have since forever.

In contrast, the echo chamber on HN, Tiktok, FB, etc is architected specifically to drive engagement. You are shown more of the content that you react to, so that you won't leave.

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