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US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

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Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#141

Post by zkmon »

jmward01 wrote: post #66
zkmon wrote: post #22

It sounds more like a parroting of a popular sentiment as a conclusion, rather than providing a data-based assessment. What are the numbers? What's the real impact? How much lead does USA have over it's nearest competition?

For the year ending May 2024, China released more scientific papers -in English- than the US [1]. We have been on a decline for a while. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of... [edit] I think that list is total, not just for a single year. Still telling though.

USA has a huge lead in the deployed technologies such as chips, software and defence tech. Research papers might not be a good metric.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#142

Post by dan-robertson »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #121
meowface wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite. America has failed to live up to those ideals (slavery, plunder, toppling democratically elected leaders to install military dictatorships, unnecessary wars with mass civilian casualties) on multiple occasions, but if you at least look at things on pape…

This is proof of my point Look at this abject propaganda “ Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite.” This is just pure John Birch society propaganda and at no point has the US actually ever attempted in any real way to realize this

This just seems pretty wrong. Obviously there were also lots of bad things the Americans did, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t attempting to realize those ideals. The US was quite influential in ending colonialism by Britain and France across much of the world after WWII for example. The US also helped to set up west Germany and Japan as liberal democracies after the war (they certainly weren’t before or during it, and Britain and France were not so fond of helping Germany recover), as well as helping German reunification (again opposed by France and Britain) and post-Soviet states with their recovery (sure, in all these cases the thing that was good for realizing these values was also good in the long run for the US (especially its Cold War political goals) and the affected countries but I don’t think that’s a very good argument that the US doesn’t care about these values).

I think there’s a lot of nuance here, and you have not expressed nuanced or detailed opinions in this thread, so I’m a bit curious about what your actual claims are, but I’m also not particularly interested in debating them.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#143

Post by dragonwriter »

dan-robertson wrote: post #142
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is proof of my point Look at this abject propaganda “ Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite.” This is just pure John Birch society propaganda and at no point has the US actually ever attempted in any real way to realize this

This just seems pretty wrong. Obviously there were also lots of bad things the Americans did, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t attempting to realize those ideals. The US was quite influential in ending colonialism by Britain and France across much of the world after WWII for example. The US also helped to set up west Germany and Japan as liberal democracies after the war (they certainly weren’t before or during it,…

> The US was quite influential in ending colonialism by Britain and France across much of the world after WWII for example.

The colonized people were a lot more influential there, though the US did exert some force in that direction (as well as plenty in the other direction) depending on its perception of the value of the particular colonial arrangement on its own geopolitical interests.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#144

Post by kasey_junk »

lbrito wrote: post #58
throw-the-towel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As bad as American domination is, wnat's coming after is might easily be worse.

Why? China is the alternative. How many countries has China waged war against, toppled democratic governments, established puppet março-states and invaded since 1949?

How many Chinese people did they kill via governmental policies in that time?

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#145

Post by exceptione »

zeroCalories wrote: post #132
exceptione wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation. The narratives are harmful. What would retaliation bring? The EU doesn't fancy a winner-takes-all mindset. There is no joy if the US goes down as some sort of backwards kleptocracy. There is no joy if the US populace slide back into the gilded age. It doesn't make the EU better. On the contrary. It will be a loss for both sides. Henc…

The point isn't to crush the U.S in retaliation, it's to show why maintaining a relationship is mutually beneficial. It's troubling that the EU can't produce any concrete reasons why that's the case.

There is a lot to say about these things, but this forum is a hard place to lay them down. I have to keep it short.

The problem is that the "US" is not seated at the table, just a bunch of kleptocrats and some zealots. The mutual benefits are real for the US, as in the populace, but the problem is that if the string-pulling group has to choose between their own interest or the US interest, they pick the first option.

I can absolutely understand you will reject the following instinctively, but let me tell you that for some fractions in the current movement, the idea of "burning" it all down is something they don't see as a bad thing. Turning the clock back in time, back to the gilded age, doing away with modernity, equal rights, secularism and non-whites--they dream about it. It is something horribly detrimental for the 99.9999%, sure, but they shouldn't have a say anyway.

And instinctively, a EU that "becomes a shining light on the hill" in absence of the USA, is a threat to the USA. The recently released foreign policy isn't shy about it. The same dynamic as Putin has with a thriving open democracy next to its border. Can't exist, dangerous, needs to be dismantled.

The trouble isn't EU US. It is the US as the representation of the American People does not exist anymore. However flawed it might have been in the past, this is something else entirely. There is not even a notion of normalcy anymore. As such, the EU can't deal with the American People anymore via the regular diplomatic channels to reach a common ground for win-wins. So these very modest public comments from officials you will read now and then in the press are nothing less than an alarm to the American people itself. If you ask me, I don't think this message will successfully cross the information space in the US, but what options do they have? If you look at HN, anything that might be interpreted as a criticism quickly becomes an identitarian battle. Which, given the binary political system in the USA and the general human trait of tribalism is quite understandable, but nonetheless self-defeating and unfortunate for both sides.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#146

Post by exceptione »

sallveburrpi wrote: post #135
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But the editorialized titled makes it sound like we have evidence of the damage. The article doesn’t provide that, it’s citing a political speech.

For sure and it’s not even clear if there will be be a lot of long term damage. The next admin might roll all of it back and then some. It doesn’t seem extremely likely at the moment but I also don’t think it’s super unlikely.

These things tends to do decades of harm in science, the USA isn't the first to do stupid things to its academia, even if the next administration tries to repair. Stuff, relations and people will be gone.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#147

Post by AndrewKemendo »

idiotsecant wrote: post #128
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's popular to hate the US but I'd like to know what country you think would be better at the role of global hegemon. What country would you suggest would do a better job? Be specific.

It’s a flawed question.

The concept that living in a hegemony is acceptable is incoherent.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#148

Post by AndrewKemendo »

meowface wrote: post #126
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is proof of my point Look at this abject propaganda “ Part of it is ideas and ideals. America represents ideas of liberty, liberalism, democracy, and individualism. The USSR/Russia and China represent the exact opposite.” This is just pure John Birch society propaganda and at no point has the US actually ever attempted in any real way to realize this

Did you read the next sentence? America has often stomped on the ideas it claims to fight for but to say it has never attempted to realize it is very silly and itself just reflexive anti-America propaganda. Look at FDR's words and actions during and after WWII, look at Eisenhower, look at Carter, look at JFK, imagine a future trajectory where Al Gore won that election. America has sometimes done the exact opposite of…

It’s all bad

I’ve been in all the halls of power.

Anything the US does that is beneficial is 1. Incidental to th goal 2. Will eventually benefit them US interest if only because it’s used as further propaganda

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#149

Post by zeroCalories »

exceptione wrote: post #145
zeroCalories wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to crush the U.S in retaliation, it's to show why maintaining a relationship is mutually beneficial. It's troubling that the EU can't produce any concrete reasons why that's the case.

There is a lot to say about these things, but this forum is a hard place to lay them down. I have to keep it short. The problem is that the "US" is not seated at the table, just a bunch of kleptocrats and some zealots. The mutual benefits are real for the US, as in the populace, but the problem is that if the string-pulling group has to choose between their own interest or the US interest, they pick the first option.…

The overwhelming conversation is about how this relationship isn't worth it. Even among liberal Americans it's about how the U.S benefits immensely from the relationship. If you can't address that concern, then Americans will assume you ceded it.

Re: US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat

#150

Post by lossolo »

adventured wrote: post #109
sallveburrpi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse for US Americans probably - rest of the world? Not so clear cut

The greatest timeline for Europe in its history? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for Latin America overall? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for Oceania overall? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for India? Post WW2 to now. The greatest timeline for the rest of Asia overall? Post WW2 to now. Coming up on 80 years. Here's a short list, please tell me which prior ~80 year period in history these natio…

Correlation is not causation. At the same time, the industrial and technological revolutions happened, which are the main drivers of the "greatest timeline".
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