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NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

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Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#141

Post by lmm »

apparent wrote: post #104
tootie wrote: post #47

It's frustrating how poorly most people understand economics and the distinction between price and cost. Everybody in the world is being asked to blithely accept the massive unpaid costs of motor vehicle usage. This is a tiny step towards recouping some of this costs. Roadways, parking, collisions, pollution, noise have all be costs born by all of us. And in NYC that's a load of non-drivers. We should be adopting all…

> we have millions of miles of free roads. Are you familiar with the gas tax? Vehicle registration fees?

Neither of which is required to use the road in all cases.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#142

Post by lmm »

khannn wrote: post #73
petesergeant wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

The European mind quivers at the thought of a state with a bigger area than most EU countries I like walking around new cities, but a lot of people are car life types

What does the size of the state have to do with anything?

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#143

Post by sysguest »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #49
energy123 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people are forced by circumstance to live in the busiest areas so they will get the biggest health benefits and many do not own cars and often do not even own a car space, so I would beg to differ. You can also offset the regressive nature of this taxation (if any) by putting the revenue into subsidizing public infrastructure like rail and bus.

Isn’t it the opposite though? The poor aren’t able to live in the most popular busiest areas, and usually have to live on the fringes of the city. They might train in though. This is mostly going to benefit the rich people who can still afford to live in the city, but with rent control there are still some non-rich people in the city.

well it's not 100% this or that -- it's mixed up

really-rich people don't have to work/commute, so prefer to live in countryside with gardens

really-poor people can't afford cars, and rich(=busy) cities usually have accomodations for them -- so they live inside busy cities

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#144

Post by maxldn »

rayiner wrote: post #99
jjj123 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply do not care if my public services are “in the red”. Let’s make them entirely in the red, please.

The point is that the MTA is deeply in the red even though it still charges significant fares. Meanwhile, systems like the London Tube manage to recover at least their operating costs without charging fares that are much if at all higher.

According to a quick search the nyc subway is $2.90 rising to $3 next year. This is comparable to, but slightly less than a zone 1 off peak ticket in London at £2.70. Most journeys are more expensive (on the train, busses are pretty cheap here)

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#145

Post by lmm »

hammock wrote: post #45
lmm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in NYC where less than half the population has access to a car.

The congestion tax has far more impact on people who live and work above 60th or in the outer boroughs or NJ than it does Manhattanites. Retail, wholesale, trades, small businesses and yes commuters in these areas, which are poorer than Manhattan, suffer disproportionately

Any evidence for that impact? While the prospect of displaced traffic was very much hyped, the data I've seen is that there's very little of it.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#146

Post by amanaplanacanal »

crazygringo wrote: post #121
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do EVs help with congestion? They take up the same amount of space as an ICE car.

EV shuttles will come in lots of capacities. Vans, buses. But you won't need to worry about schedules or preset routes because it's all dynamic. Wherever there would be the most congestion is precisely where the app will give you the biggest discount to switch from your private vehicle into a bus, then switch back into another private vehicle for the last 5 minutes of your trip.

None of what you are saying has anything to do with being an EV vehicle.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#147

Post by apparent »

lmm wrote: post #141
apparent wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have millions of miles of free roads. Are you familiar with the gas tax? Vehicle registration fees?

Neither of which is required to use the road in all cases.

True, you can ride a bicycle/scooter/etc. or just walk on roads without paying. All motor vehicles pay registration fees if I'm not mistaken. And in at least some states, they hit EVs with higher fees, to make up for lost gas tax revenue. I think some states are even moving towards per-mile fees for EVs, for this purpose. But most road damage is done by big rigs and other heavy vehicles, which are basically all ICE.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#148

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sysguest wrote: post #143
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it the opposite though? The poor aren’t able to live in the most popular busiest areas, and usually have to live on the fringes of the city. They might train in though. This is mostly going to benefit the rich people who can still afford to live in the city, but with rent control there are still some non-rich people in the city.

well it's not 100% this or that -- it's mixed up really-rich people don't have to work/commute, so prefer to live in countryside with gardens really-poor people can't afford cars, and rich(=busy) cities usually have accomodations for them -- so they live inside busy cities

Really poor people can’t afford cars in the city, and yes, they can exist in the city because of public housing snd rent control. And it really isn’t the cars that are expensive, or even operating the cars, but the parking.

There are lots of middle class commuters who can’t afford to live in the city: they aren’t lucky enough to win the lottery with a rent controlled unit, and are too rich to live in public housing, but still too poor to live in housing of a standard they can tolerate in the city even if their job is there.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#149

Post by ako »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #119
ATMLOTTOBEER wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the govt lights the money on fire we still get the benefit of fewer cars in lower manhattan. What in particular about the MTA would you change?

> What in particular about the MTA would you change? Remove the diversity compliance requirement from bids, e.g. [1]. Open up bids to any firm in the nation and select winners based on cost and competence only. Subject the MTA to a forensic audit every ten or twenty years. [1] https://www.mta.info/document/180556

Usually diversity requirements don't come with lower competence requirements. They usually require people to be competent and then also equal opportunity. Or are you suggesting that all non-white non-male people are incompetent?

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#150

Post by Mawr »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #72
petesergeant wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

We did perfect their mass production, and it propelled us to the world's largest economy. The only country with better GDP growth over the last 100 years is Japan, and that's in large part because they perfected the manufacture of cars themselves.

Right, it's not the geopolitical situation, but cars. Natural resources + every potentially powerful hostile country is across entire oceans = success.
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