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Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

moonshotai.github.io

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Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#141

Post by overfeed »

lvl155 wrote: post #125
tokioyoyo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know first hand companies paying them. Chinese internal software market is gigantic. Full of companies and startups that have barely made into a single publication in the west.

Of course they are paying them. That’s not my point. My point is this is the only way for them to gain market share and they need Western users to train future models. They have to give them away. I’d be shocked if compute costs are not heavily subsidized by CCP.

> My point is this is the only way for them to gain market share and they need Western users to train future models.

And how would releasing open-weight models help with that? Open-weights invite self-hosting, or worse, hosting by werstern GPUaaS companies.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#142

Post by bigyabai »

NiloCK wrote: post #139
rcxdude wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter. A reasoning model has been finetuned to use the scratchpad for intermediate results (which works better than just prompting a model to do the same).

I'd expect the same (fine tuning to be better than mere prompting) for most anything. So a model is or is not "a reasoning model" according to the extent of a fine tune. Are there specific benchmarks that compare models vs themselves with and without scratchpads? High with:without ratios being reasonier models? Curious also how much a generalist model's one-shot responses degrade with reasoning post-training.

> Are there specific benchmarks that compare models vs themselves with and without scratchpads?

Yep, it's pretty common for many models to release an instruction-tuned and thinking-tuned model and then bench them against each other. For instance, if you scroll down to "Pure text performance" there's a comparison of these two Qwen models' performance: https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3-VL-30B-A3B-Thinking

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#143

Post by simonw »

an0malous wrote: post #123
JJax7 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love seeing this benchmark become more iconic with each new model release. Still in disbelief at the GPT-5 variants' performance in comparison but its cool to see the new open source models get more ambitious with their attempts.

Why is this a benchmark though? It doesn’t correlate with intelligence

It started as a joke, but over time performance on this one weirdly appears to correlate to how good the models are generally. I'm not entirely sure why!

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#144

Post by jiggawatts »

ok_dad wrote: post #138
HighGoldstein wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What test would be better correlated with intelligence and why?

When the machines become depressed and anxious we'll know they've achieved true intelligence. This is only partly a joke.

This already happens!

There have been many reports of CLI AI tools getting frustrated, giving up, and just deleting the whole codebase in anger.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#145

Post by saubeidl »

uvaursi wrote: post #120
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Europeans don't it because quite frankly, we're not really doing anything particularly impressive with AI sadly.

[flagged]

I'm tired of this ol' propaganda trope.

* We're leading the world in fusion research. https://www.pppl.gov/news/2025/wendelstein-7-x-sets-new-perf...

* Our satellites are giving us by far the best understanding of our universe, capturing one third of the visible sky in incredible detail - just check out this mission update video if you want your mind blown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCBFlIpvfQ

* Not only that, the Copernicus mission is the world's leading source for open data geoobservation: https://dataspace.copernicus.eu/

* We've given the world mRNA vaccines to solve the Covid crisis and GLP-1 antagonists to solve the obesity crisis.

* CERN and is figuring out questions about the fundamental nature of the universe, with the LHC being by far the largest particle accelerator in the world, an engineering precision feat that couldn't have been accomplished anywhere else.

Pioneering, innovation and drive forward isn't just about the latest tech fad. It's about fundamental research on how our universe works. Everyone else is downstream of us.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#147

Post by a-dub »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #44
a-dub wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open source" means there should be a script that downloads all the training materials and then spins up a pipeline that trains end to end. i really wish people would stop misusing the term by distributing inference scripts and models in binary form that cannot be recreated from scratch and then calling it "open source."

"open source" has come to mean "open weight" in model land. It is what it is. Words are used for communication, you are the one misusing the words. You can update the weights of the model, continue to train, whatever. Nobody is stopping you.

it still doesn't sit right. sure it's different in terms of mutability from say, compiled software programs, but it still remains not end to end reproducible and available for inspection.

these words had meaning long before "model land" became a thing. overloading them is just confusing for everyone.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#148

Post by dmonitor »

an0malous wrote: post #123
JJax7 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love seeing this benchmark become more iconic with each new model release. Still in disbelief at the GPT-5 variants' performance in comparison but its cool to see the new open source models get more ambitious with their attempts.

Why is this a benchmark though? It doesn’t correlate with intelligence

It's simple enough that a person can easily visualize the intended result, but weird enough that generative AI struggles with it

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#149

Post by Majromax »

Aurornis wrote: post #108
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - the whole business model of companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, at least at the moment, seems to be that the models are so big that you need to run them in the cloud with metered access. Maybe that could change in the future to sale or annual licence business model if running locally became possible. I think scale helps for general tasks where the breadth of capability may be needed, but it's not so clear tha…

> the whole business model of companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, at least at the moment, seems to be that the models are so big that you need to run them in the cloud with metered access. That's not a business model choice, though. That's a reality of running SOTA models. If OpenAI or Anthropic could squeeze the same output out of smaller GPUs and servers they'd be doing it for themselves. It would cut their datace…

> If OpenAI or Anthropic could squeeze the same output out of smaller GPUs and servers they'd be doing it for themselves.

First, they do this; that's why they release models at different price points. It's also why GPT-5 tries auto-routing requests to the most cost-effective model.

Second, be careful about considering the incentives of these companies. They all act as if they're in an existential race to deliver 'the' best model; the winner-take-all model justifies their collective trillion dollar-ish valuation. In that race, delivering 97% of the performance at 10% of the cost is a distraction.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#150

Post by saubeidl »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #51
seunosewa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese are doing it because they don't have access to enough of the latest GPUs to run their own models. Americans aren't doing this because they need to recoup the cost of their massive GPU investments.

And Europeans don't it because quite frankly, we're not really doing anything particularly impressive with AI sadly.

Honestly, do we need to? If the Chinese release SOTA open source models, why should we invest a ton just to have another one? We can just use theirs, that's the beauty of open source.
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