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Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

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Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#141

Post by wwweston »

drnick1 wrote: post #123
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't believe if you are joking or not. I trust a corporation more than I trust the nation you want it nationalized in (America?) EU maybe. But yes I don't want cloudflare to be part of america after patriotic acts and all the dystopia. Honestly, cloudflare is not so vital to the internet. Like, The only thing its gonna be a problem if they stop working without giving any way to migrate. Then yes, its gonna be a bit…

The EU is quickly becoming a dystopian nightmare with age verification, mandated encryption backdoors, and generally an extremely invasive form of government. So no thanks.

No thanks to this level of evaluation which doesn’t even rise to “analysis”, it’s just a word salad association that picks two hobby horses and pretends they represent the apocalypse while ignoring all the measures on which many EU participating countries are producing quality of life and personal freedom at outlier levels.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#142

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

swiftcoder wrote: post #135
encom wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>cloudflare is not so vital to the internet Really? Try distrusting CF certs, and see how much of your internet activity breaks. CF certs should be distrusted, because it's MITM by definition. At the very least, I'd like an addon that makes the URL bar bright red, so I know my connection isn't secure.

It's not more vital, than, say, AWS. Blocking AWS certs/endpoints will break your internet too. Though arguably neither should be in a position to do so without being regulate as a public utility

Yup, I also meant the same when I was writing my comment and although I agree about regulation, the thing is, that I don't even trust that aspect...

Also, I know that there are sometimes where cloudflare sits in the middle between your servers and your users for DDOS protection, and so yes theoretically its a point of interception but given how their whole thing is security, I doubt that they would exploit it but yes its a point of concern.

On the other hand, if something like this does happen, migrating can be easier or on the same level if something like this happened on like AWS.

But cloudflare still feels safer than AWS y'know?

That being said, I am all in for some regulations as a public utility but not nationalizing it as the GP comment suggested. Just some regulations would be nice but honestly we are in a bit of tough spot and maybe it was the necessity of the internet to have something like cloudflare to prevent DDOS's.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#145

Post by kordlessagain »

cj wrote: post #56
sgt wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a myth though (with some truth to it in certain cases). I've run my own mail infrastructure since 1999, no issues.

I suspect if you shared more info about your mail infrastructure, it might reveal that what is working for you is too complicated for 99.9% of people to set up and maintain themselves.

Your argument might have worked 5 years ago. Now, with AI, it's very dated.

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#147

Post by toomuchtodo »

layer8 wrote: post #126
toomuchtodo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have more money than time. Take my money to do things I do not have time for. What you call lazy, I call time and capital/cashflow efficient. (cloudflare customer, in both personal and professional capacities; i pay Fastmail to host family email; both can easily be switched if needed to prevent lock in, with DNS changes and in the case of hosted email, an export of mailboxes and tenant config)

What GP is effectively saying is that you don’t value independence enough to invest the necessary money and (for personal use) time into self-hosting. And there is a spectrum to this. For example, using a small, independent email or hosting provider may cost a little more time, but makes you more independent from big tech, and maybe more importantly, contributes to reducing the power of big tech. We are all paying fo…

This is a fallacy, as self hosting means you remain at the whims of receiving or interfacing systems. Does you hosting your own email change the concentration of email accounts hosted at Yahoo, Microsoft, and Gmail? It doesn't. Does hosting your own domain or website change Cloudflare's concentration and centralization of internet traffic? It doesn't. You vote with your dollars by picking providers who won't lock you in, you vote with your dollars by picking protocols over platforms that cannot lock you in.

Paying Fastmail, along with others who do so, means Fastmail will remain as a non Big Tech option, for example (they also developed and championed, JMAP, for a more efficient user experience). Paying Kagi means Kagi will remain as a non Big Tech option. Donating to Let's Encrypt means Let's Encrypt will remain as a public good independent of Big Tech. I could go down the list of every service I pay for to de-Google and de-Big Tech, but that's likely unhelpful to further demonstrate the point.

> We are all paying for it, down the line.

Indeed, so establish and fund organizations that provide systems and services for benefit vs profit and control that cannot be captured. Self hosting your own box at home helps you (which is totally fine and reasonable, I run my own on prem infra across two continents at small business enterprise scale for use cases I cannot procure commercially at reasonable cost), but does nothing else, and doesn't scale.

(think in systems)

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#148

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

wwweston wrote: post #141
drnick1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is quickly becoming a dystopian nightmare with age verification, mandated encryption backdoors, and generally an extremely invasive form of government. So no thanks.

No thanks to this level of evaluation which doesn’t even rise to “analysis”, it’s just a word salad association that picks two hobby horses and pretends they represent the apocalypse while ignoring all the measures on which many EU participating countries are producing quality of life and personal freedom at outlier levels.

Lets just hope that EU doesn't add that age verification thing or those Cert based things which is controlled by the govt.

My opinion is simple, age verification won't work unless they block VPN (something which UK wants to do/ is doing) and that sets a really really bad precedent and I doubt if its entirely possible without breaking some aspects of internet or complete internet privacy.

EU in aggregate is net positive but it still has some things which are kinda flawed regulations that are a bad precedent, but germany kinda blocked the verification thing iirc so there is still a lot of hope and EU does look like its trying its best but I think that it can do just a bit better if they don't think of age verification or some other stuff but that's just my 2 cents.

This was why I added "maybe" tbh. They are one of the best options but even they aren't thaat good. Like its questionable I think and needs a much bigger debate

Re: Cloudflare Email Service: private beta

#150

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

encom wrote: post #110
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't believe if you are joking or not. I trust a corporation more than I trust the nation you want it nationalized in (America?) EU maybe. But yes I don't want cloudflare to be part of america after patriotic acts and all the dystopia. Honestly, cloudflare is not so vital to the internet. Like, The only thing its gonna be a problem if they stop working without giving any way to migrate. Then yes, its gonna be a bit…

>cloudflare is not so vital to the internet Really? Try distrusting CF certs, and see how much of your internet activity breaks. CF certs should be distrusted, because it's MITM by definition. At the very least, I'd like an addon that makes the URL bar bright red, so I know my connection isn't secure.

Hm, you raise good points but I just thought when I was writing that comment, that if there was even a single case of somebody using that MITM then that would just make everyone leave cloudflare and find either other mechanism or something else that's safer for sure.

I think that cloudflare is used by most as DDOS protection and so they still have the servers.

There are also cloudflare workers and pages but even migrating them is somewhat doable as I think that cf workers have a local preview option somewhat available in their node etc., so you could run it locally somehow.

Sure its gonna be a huge huge problem but something that the internet might look past of (I think).

Honestly, I kinda wish that there was a way to have something like how the tor onion links work in the sense that the link has the public key of the person running the server and so uh, no matter if its cloudflare serving the link or something else, its still something that can't be MITM'd for the most part.

Am I right in thinking so? Sure, its gonna make the links longer but maybe sacrifices/compromises must be made?

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