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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#141

Post by stego-tech »

Basically what I was saying a week ago about the rise of China as an empire: we already have this at home, and it’s worse because we don’t bother regulating it.

Look, social credit is neither a new concept nor is it destined to be some Orwellian/Black Mirror/Authoritarian tool that keeps undesirables enslaved in low-wage work or targeted for “reeducation” - that’s a decision we allow Governments or Corporations to make on our behalf by refusing to bother regulating these systems or holding bad actors accountable.

The sooner we accept that this is possible, that it’s already here in many cases, the sooner we can begin negotiating regulations in good faith with one another. Maybe it’s placing limits on the data corporations can gather and retain, or maybe it’s preventing the government from acquiring private data without transparent judicial warrants tied to crimes. Maybe it’s something else entirely!

All I know is the current status quo enriches Capital while harming people, governments, and Democracy. I think that’s bullshit, and we should do something about it.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#142

Post by ManlyBread »

>credit score

Non-existent in the country I live in. There's a national registry of debtors and people end up there for a very good reason.

>Linkedin, Amazon

There's no reason to consider these to be essential services, I am not using either and I'm doing perfectly fine in life.

>Instagram

LOL

>Uber, Airbnb

There are several copycats, traditional taxis and hotels are still a thing and public transportation or your own car are valid alternatives

What even is this article? I skimmmed the rest of it and it just seems like the crux of the article is about proving how China's systems are actually fine while ommitng the fact that their systems are mandated by the state. Is Chinese propaganda what makes it to the front page of HN nowadays?

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#143

Post by platevoltage »

drnick1 wrote: post #17

The real problem here is privacy and anonymity. These discrete "rating systems" used by various companies aren't particularly dangerous as long as they cannot identify users by some common identifier such as name, DOB or address. Got banned by Uber or Amazon? Just create a new account.

I've been trying to "create a new account" for Facebook in order to have the privilege of using the WhatsApp for my business. Not sure why I can't since I left the platform voluntarily.

Instaban. Every. Time.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#145

Post by aspenmayer »

card_zero wrote: post #26
aezart wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government staying out of it makes it worse . The companies have so much power over your life without any oversight.

On the other hand, the government staying out of it makes it better, because if you're banned by the main taxi firm or housing market or [insert rhetorical third thing], there remains the chance of using some sketchy unpopular alternative service, and you're not in violation of the law if you find such a option.

I’m reminded of the punishment that Kevin Mitnick received, which included a ban on using any computing device more advanced than a landline phone. I understand that he was agreed to this, but one cannot agree to sell themselves into slavery[0], and yet these supervised release conditions are considered legal and acceptable to most folks not subject to them. Plea deals are a pox on society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest,_convicti...

> Mitnick was released from prison on January 21, 2000. During his supervised release period, which ended on January 21, 2003, he was initially forbidden to use any communications technology other than a landline telephone.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_agreement

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#146

Post by platevoltage »

wvenable wrote: post #33
gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

You can always move to new town and start again. The problem with all these social credit systems is that they're designed to follow you wherever you go forever. There is also zero recourse if a mistake was made; at least you can try and smooth things over with a bartender.

What happens if in one town you lose your job, and get evicted from your apartment, or default on your mortgage? You're going to have trouble with housing in that next town.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#147

Post by gspencley »

> The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing. We pretend our algorithmic reputation scores are just “user experience features.” At least Beijing admits they're gamifying human behavior.

Um no. That is not the only difference by a LONG SHOT.

If I want to evaluate whether or not I want to involve myself with you, in any capacity, then that negotiation is between you and me. I can ask for references. I can ask for a credit check. I can go pay for a police background check. I can read public review sites. Or, I might decide that because you listen to country & western music you're not a real person and I can't know you and leave the vetting at that.

Consequentially, however, that dealing impacts our relationship and none other. You might find other people who don't care about the same "social credit criteria" that I do and you might find yourself dealing with them instead.

That's kind of the beauty of this thing we call "freedom." Anyone gets to choose who they want to deal with (or not) and make their own individual choices. The "systems" they opt in are always opt in (or at least they should be).

The difference between a government "social credit" system and individuals (businesses or people) vetting other individuals based on their own chosen requirements is force.

A government system mandates this across society in a broad authoritarian sweep. Get on the bad side of "the party" and now you are a social pariah and will not have any luck finding anyone who wants to deal with you, country music lovers be damned, because it is forced upon everyone. A business has no choice but to apply "the" system because if they don't they get punished. It is not opt-in, it is a one-sized-fits-all mandated by force of law system that removes individual discretion and choice from the equation.

That's a LOT different than just "we're upfront about it."

Furthermore, while I appreciate when authoritarians are honest about their violations of basic human rights and freedoms, that doesn't suddenly make what they are doing OK. I don't want to deal with a thief who is honest about their thievery any more than I want to deal with one who tries to hide it.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#148

Post by card_zero »

mlinhares wrote: post #131
card_zero wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> afraid something will happen to them Because of what, the decrease in crime?

Who knows, you'll have to go to their leaked private chats to see the madness they're conjuring there.

OK, a second theory: the situation is messy and complex. Society tolerates the use of physical force less, and has higher standards of health and safety, and more suing and seeking compensation. The police and security then favor electronic methods over potentially injuring themselves or anybody else. Then there's more potential to be bad in small ways because nobody's going to grab you by the collar. Meanwhile, there's opportunities for internet crime, or electronic organized crime, or just mobs and riots. Then the shift in emphasis to electronic control spills over into the private sphere, and the public kind of support it while resenting it at the same time.

In summary, everybody has started liking doing everything in a hands-off way via the internet, but also everybody hates it.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#149

Post by platevoltage »

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

I think this is a big reason why Americans (and other "Westerners") tend to say "Look at them, they're Communist!!!", instead of "Look at them, They're Authoritarian!!!".

If you call it what it actually is, too many Americans might actually connect the dots.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#150

Post by exabrial »

sealeck wrote: post #16
exabrial wrote: post #9

Why do you think sms "2fa" is suddenly so popular with banks and other fintechs, despite things like passkeys and u2f, you know things that _actually_ prevent people from breaking into accounts, have existed forever?

Try convincing your customers to all get a YubiKey... it's not fun. The majority of internet users are able to read an SMS on their phone and copy a code, however.

seems like a small price to pay to prevent coughing up literal millions in fraud payments every year
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