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Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

cnbc.com

141–150 of 286 posts

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps better to achieve symmetry by ceasing to execute humans. You're never going to make executing the wrong corporation as thoroughly wicked as the numerous occasions on which we've executed the wrong human, so you can't make the scores even but you can stop putting more on the total for human misery. Historically it was impractical to permanently warehouse large number of humans, death was more practical = but t…

>You're never going to make executing the wrong corporation as thoroughly wicked as the numerous occasions on which we've executed the wrong human What if we garnished 100% of the future wages of all the employees in perpetuity as well as dissolving the corporate entity? You know, to to make sure the company stays all the way dead.

I guess my bad for not specifying that it'd need be wicked for the corporation not the humans.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#142
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the jury heard "autopilot" and then assigned blame to the company that called it that. "[Plaintiffs] claimed Tesla’s Autopilot technology was flawed and deceptively marketed."

As gets pointed out ad nauseum, the very first "cruise control" product in cars was in fact called "Auto-Pilot". Also real "autopilot" systems in aircraft (where the term of art comes from!) aren't remotely supervision-free. This is a fake argument (post hoc rationalization): It invents a meaning to a phrase that seems reasonable but that has never been rigorously applied ever, and demands that one speaker, and only…

The market Tesla is advertising to is not airplane pilots. It is the general car buying public.

If they are using any terms in their ads in ways other than the way the people the ads are aimed at (the general car buying public) can reasonably be expected to understand them, then I'd expect that could be considered to be negligent.

Much of the general public is going to get their entire idea of what an autopilot can do from what autopilots do in fiction.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#143

If I were running a car company, I may decide to stop development on assistive features and remove any that exist from future models. The way people are using them, and the courts are punishing the companies for adding these safety features, is it worth it to them? Not having them would also bring down the base price on vehicles, which seems to be the primary complaint from people right now.

Or just not do false advertising.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't hold up logically unless I'm missing something, certainly the victim wouldn't be getting fined 329 million if it was decided to be his fault for not looking at the road I hope we haven't internalized the idea that corporations should be treated the same as people. There's essentially no difference $3M and $300M fine against most individuals, but $3M means very little to Tesla. If you want Tesla's behav…

>I hope we haven't internalized the idea that corporations should be treated the same as people. Only when it comes to rights. When it comes to responsibilities the corporations stop being people and go back to being amorphous, abstract things that are impossible to punish.

> Only when it comes to rights.

"Corporations are people" means a corporation is people, not a corporation is a person.

People have rights, whether they are acting through a corporation or not. That's what Citizens United determined.

I hope you think about who misled you to thinking that "corporations are people" meant a corporation is a person and trust them a little less.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#145

"Vehicle will not break when accelerator pedal is applied" is displayed on the screen in AutoPilot mode. The system warns you this every time you have foot on the pedal in AutoPilot mode. I wonder if it did that back in 2019 as well or if accidents like this spurred that as a UI change. Also, how the heck is Mr. McGee supposed to come up with the other 67% of this judgment?

> Also, how the heck is Mr. McGee supposed to come up with the other 67% of this judgment?

He probably can't. Assuming the amount stands on appeal, and assuming that he doesn't have an insurance policy with policy limits high enough to cover it, he'll pay as much as he can out of personal assets and probably have his wages garnished.

He might also be able to declare bankruptcy to get out of some or all of it.

An interesting question is what the plaintiffs can do if they just cannot get anywhere near the amount owed from him.

A handful of states have "joint and several liability" for most torts. If this had been in one of those states the way damages work when there are multiple defendants is:

• Each defendant is fully responsible for all damages

• The plaintiff can not collect more than the total damage award

In such a state the plaintiffs could simply ask Tesla for the entire $329 million and Tesla would have to pay. Tesla would then have a claim for $220 million against McGee.

Of course McGee probably can't come up with that, so McGee still ends up in bankruptcy, but instead of plaintiffs being shortchanged by $220 million it would be Tesla getting shortchanged.

The idea behind joint and several liability is that in situations like there where someone has to be screwed it shouldn't be the innocent plaintiff.

Many other states have "modified joint and several liability". In those states rather than each defendant being fully responsible, only defendants whose share of the fault exceeds some threshold (often 50%) are fully responsible.

For example suppose there are three plaintiffs whose fault shares are 60%, 30%, and 10%. In a pure joint and several liability state plaintiff could collect from whichever are most able to come up with the money. If that's the 10% one they could demand 100% from them and leave it to that defendant to try to get reimbursed from the others.

In a modified joint and several liability state with a 50% threshold the most the plaintiff can ask from the 30% and 10% defendants is 30% and 10% respectively. They could ask the 60% defendant for 100% instead. If the 60% defendant is the deep pockets defendant that works out fine for the plaintiff, but if it is the 10% one and the other two are poor then the plaintiff is the one that gets screwed.

Finally there are some states that have gotten rid of joint and several liability, including Florida in 2006. In those states plaintiff can only collect from each defendant bases on their share of fault. Tesla pays their 33%, McGee pays whatever tiny amount he can, and the plaintiff is screwed.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#146

> The company must pay $329 million in damages to victims and survivor, including compensatory and punitive damages. > A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company’s Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system. > While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced…

It's sort of like with the Prius acceleration debacle we had, people always want to blame the car and not their own actions.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#147
HN commenter: "On one hand I don't think you can apply a price to a human life, but on the other 329 million feels too high, especially since Tesla is only partially to blame, it wasn't FSD, and the driver wasn't using the system correctly."

What this sentence is describing are compensatory damages, e.g., compensation for loss of life

That number was 129 not 329, and Tesla was only found liable for 33% of it

CNBC: "Tesla's payout is based on $129 million in compensatory damages, and $200 million in punitive damages against the company."

CNBC: "The jury determined Tesla should be held 33% responsible for the fatal crash. That means the automaker would be responsible for about $42.5 million in compensatory damages."

42.5 is not even close to the 329 number that the HN commenter's claims "feels too high"

HN commenter: "This doesn't hold up logically unless I'm missing something, certainly the victim wouldn't be getting fined 329 million if it was decided to be his fault for not looking at the road"

This sentence is describing something more akin to punitive damages, e.g., a fine

That number was 200 not 329

It seems the HN commenter makes no distinction between compensatory and punitive damages

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#148
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can on tesla when used correctly. Can you enable plane autopilot and still crash into a mountain?

Modern autopilots? No, they will not crash into a mountain or another plane.

So you’re a pilot?

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except driver already accepted liability. Also this doesn't stand water today as all new cars have some basic autosteer.

No one else falsely advertises it as "Full Self Driving".

FSD wasn’t even released at that time.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#150
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders.

The “LL” in LLC stands for Limited Liability. The whole point is to financially insulate the owner(s).

To be fair, I think they’re talking about seizing the LLC’s assets. Not the members’.
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