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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#141

Post by lotsofpulp »

bluGill wrote: post #137
lotsofpulp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t it keep working via manual control?

IF they design it to work that way it can. Do you trust the manufacture to do that though? This is not only do they need to design it that way, but also that they need to ensure it works in all the edge cases. I've been in software long enough to know there are a lot of weird edge cases nobody thinks of that are then missed for years.

If you toggle or otherwise manually manipulate a light switch, surely it is physically disconnecting the circuits? I don't see how that mechanism could ever not work, absent mechanical issues.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#142

Post by umbra07 »

K0balt wrote: post #64
wkat4242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and matter needs internet access in many cases. It was supposed to be the saviour of open home automation. But in practice it leaves too many strings attached that the manufacturer can take advantage of. And despite it not being open enough for open source enthusiasts, it's also got a bad name with manufacturers. I work for one and I asked why we wouldn't implement matter and thread and it was laughed off becaus…

>Why were thread and matter hailed as the open revolution when they're exactly the opposite? Subterfuge PR or the subversion of original intention by greed. Also, wasn’t there recent news that thread was being abandoned by manufacturers, even declaring it EOL? Or am I conflating that with something else?

I remember an interview [1] with the Nanoleaf CEO (they switched to Thread over Matter years ahead of everyone else) about why Thread/Matter was so difficult, why everyone else didn't adopt it, and that they're going to wait for Thread to get better before they launch new products with it.

On the other hand, I believe all the major Thread Border Router manufacturers (Apple, Google, Amazon, Samsung) have updated their Thread routers or committed to updating their Thread routers to Thread v1.4, which is a pretty major upgrade.

[1] https://matter-smarthome.de/en/interview/nanoleaf-ceo-gimmy-...

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#144

Post by K0balt »

umbra07 wrote: post #142
K0balt wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why were thread and matter hailed as the open revolution when they're exactly the opposite? Subterfuge PR or the subversion of original intention by greed. Also, wasn’t there recent news that thread was being abandoned by manufacturers, even declaring it EOL? Or am I conflating that with something else?

I remember an interview [1] with the Nanoleaf CEO (they switched to Thread over Matter years ahead of everyone else) about why Thread/Matter was so difficult, why everyone else didn't adopt it, and that they're going to wait for Thread to get better before they launch new products with it. On the other hand, I believe all the major Thread Border Router manufacturers (Apple, Google, Amazon, Samsung) have updated their…

Yeah, doesn’t sound like EOL to me. Must have been some other IOT/PAN technology.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#145

Post by BuildTheRobots »

Toutouxc wrote: post #31
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a…

HA doesn't care but your radio environment probably does. One of the great strengths of Zigbee is the mesh network - it doesn't matter where in my house I dump something, because all my bulbs are Zigbee repeaters it's going to get a signal and be able to route back to my HA box.

If I now get a _single_ Thread/Matter/Zwave device to replace one that's broken, ignoring the cost of a new radio for HA, I have to give very serious thought to where it's going to live vs signal availability as I build out yet another network.

tldr: HA is fantastic for coordinating disparate devices, but RF still bites.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#146

Post by lukeschlather »

bri3d wrote: post #45
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future? Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

I disagree that there’s zero chance for a homebrew scheme; it’s pretty easy to enable development mode and commission self-made devices using Google Home or Apple Home on both iOS and Android.

Dev mode seems like such a nonstarter. I don't know what dev mode entails, but I don't want to be running my kitchen light in dev mode, I'll just use an analog switch.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#147

Post by microtonal »

arcbyte wrote: post #98
macNchz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really ca…

I use SmartThings and ive never missed with any configs at all. Only ever one single app - smartthings. Ive been extremely happy after dozens of devices.

Same. Their Hub (now sold by Aeotec) does Z-Wave, Zigbee, and Thread. There is also a pretty active plugin community.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#148

Post by cheeze »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #12

I am hoping that this is the thing that triggers Matter/Thread to go mainstream. I'm currently blocked because Google and Amazon don't support "Generic Switches". Which means that if I switch over a light-bulb to being a smart one I can't use something like the Arre Smart Button to control them. Which seems like such a standard requirement that I do not understand why it's not supported. If Ikea will let me set that…

For how much hype Matter had (I remember everyone saying "Just wait! Any day now!") it sure... hasn't delivered

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#149

Post by cheeze »

bluGill wrote: post #137
lotsofpulp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t it keep working via manual control?

IF they design it to work that way it can. Do you trust the manufacture to do that though? This is not only do they need to design it that way, but also that they need to ensure it works in all the edge cases. I've been in software long enough to know there are a lot of weird edge cases nobody thinks of that are then missed for years.

> Do you trust the manufacture to do that though?

... Yes?

I use Lutron so I'm less concerned about obsolescence... but yeah. Pretty much every smart light switch I've ever used is just a normal light switch with additional networking capabilites.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#150

Post by lukeschlather »

bevr1337 wrote: post #127
alsko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter was created by the Connectivity Standards Alliance (CSA), formerly known as the Zigbee Alliance! Basically, Matter is the next generation Zigbee. Thread as a protocol predates Matter, and it is just one of the supported transports, together with Wifi and Ethernet (for now). Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network w…

> Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network without QR codes or numbers to type in. What follows are my two pennies as a developer working in home automation for 7 years. In this venue, readers may even have more knowledge regarding security, but I hope to speak to a common case. I develop this exact feature though not for…

I feel like the problem is a lack of realism about what is required to meet the usability standards of traditional analog switches. Like, I hear you talking about a tradeoff between security and usability for a "rare" provisioning event but I think in practice if you imagine a device has a 10 year lifespan, I would guess that making the provisioning hardware probably translates into at a minimum a full month of downtime over the lifespan of the device, with many devices being down for months or years at a time because no one can be bothered to figure out why.

The security concerns probably have typically zero impact on the operation of the device. I'm not saying that the security concerns are unjustified. Really I'm actually leaning more that this is completely impractical and not a good replacement for a dumb physical switch. The security issues are unacceptable and the downtime caused by even the useless security measures available is even worse. (Also, the security measures seem more concerned with whether or not I have a license to watch my video on that particular device than preventing people from turning on my toaster.)

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