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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

daringfireball.net

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Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#141

Post by ryandrake »

doe88 wrote: post #103
js2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried emailing hn@ycombinator.com and asking? From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html How are stories ranked? The basic algorithm divides points by a power of the time since a story was submitted. Comments in threads are ranked the same way. Other factors affecting rank include user flags, anti-abuse software, software which demotes overheated discussions, account or site weighting, and moderator acti…

I wonder can a submitted post be flagged without displaying the leading tag? Because there is definitively something preventing Gruber's posts from reaching the first page although most of his posts are not overtly flagged. But as you say he should ask @dang for more informations.

One of the theories I read somewhere is that there may be a threshold number of user-flags before the title gets tagged as [flagged], but flagging that happens fewer than that threshold still serves to down-weight the article. So there could be a lot of user-flags burying the article before it shows up as [flagged].

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#142

Post by JKCalhoun »

jgruber wrote: post #125
gcp123 wrote: post #57

As someone who's been reading Daring Fireball since 2004 and considers themselves an Apple fan, I think the algorithm is working exactly as intended if it's designed to limit intellectually dishonest content. Gruber has built a career on a predictable pattern: vociferously defend Apple's every decision (even contradicting his own previous positions when Apple changes course), construct elaborate post-rationalizations…

How then do you explain DF being HN's #3 personal blog from 2007-2021, but #72 from 2021-2025? Do you recall HN announcing a major algorithm change?

I would guess a change in HN audience (anyone want to throw in COVID-19?) and a decline in Apple's popularity in general.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#143

Post by JKCalhoun »

jgruber wrote: post #47
e_ wrote: post #31

I suspect it may be a mix of various factors: 1. The HN audience’s preferences have changed over time 2. There’s way more competition – the amount of great content to share and discuss has increased a lot 3. Gruber apparently does not write as much or as well as he did a decade or so ago (at least according to many Daring Fireball readers I know) 4. Yes, many readers don’t like him, but I would also say that many rea…

So you think I was consistently at #3 “as much and as well” from 2007-2021, and declined to #72 “as much and as well” quality in the last 4 years?

If you discard that point (and it is a very subjective one and so easy to discard) there are still four other points that might have some weight.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#145

Post by robenkleene »

spenrose wrote: post #139
robenkleene wrote: post #134

The anger reading the comments here from the folks who don't like DF/Apple is practically palpable, and that's obviously the reason the articles get flagged. I'm not sure where all that anger comes from (e.g., there isn't any company I've ever been as angry about as some of the commenters on this thread are). I suspect the response I'd get if I asked would be Apple did this or that, but personally, if I didn't like t…

I suspect it's driven by the Olde School Linux / Free Software contingent of HN commenters / voters. Here is an example[1]: "The #1 story on Hacker News at 2023:08:21T15:41Z is a 2021 discussion of Linux desktop packaging tools. Hypothesis: HN story up-voters are heavily drawn from Free / Open Source Software folks interested in issues that were broadly discussed in "tech" two decades ago (Linux for the desktop!) and…

I agree, and expressed something similar in another command on this thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43493805 that HN is trending more and more from a general site for software/hardware makers, and more towards a Linux/OSS specific site.

That's a notable trend overall, but not really a problem on its own. Every community is inevitably going to lean a certain way.

But it doesn't really explain the anger. To be blunt, most of the comments criticizing DF/Apple in this thread sound unhinged to me, e.g., like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free. I have difficulty understanding that mindset with something you can so easily avoid just by buying a product from another company? E.g., there are countless companies whose values don't align with my own, so I don't use their products, and that's the end of it. Why are these folks spending so much of their energy on hating this company that they can so easily avoid? And why is it just Apple that garner's this hatred, e.g., why not Nintendo for example, a company with a similar approach overall (closed, emphasis on product experience over specs) for example.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#146

Post by k_roy »

jgruber wrote: post #128
do_not_redeem wrote: post #107

I don't see how a blog post complaining about vote counts is any more interesting than a comment complaining about vote counts. But ok, I'll bite. The articles are not ranked well because they're not interesting or useful. The one DF article I remember seeing recently is "Why Can’t We Screenshot Frames From DRM-Protected Video on Apple Devices?" and it seemed like just a fluffy post without any technical info and wit…

How then do you explain DF ranking #3 from 2007-2021, but dropping to #78 from 2021-2025? Are you saying my writing was significantly more interesting and useful for the first 14 years but dropped off a cliff starting in 2021, and the keen HN audience noticed the change immediately? You're making a perhaps-legitimate case for why DF should never have ranked well at HN. But the data shows that the opposite is true: fo…

I've enjoyed your work for close to multiple decades, probably fell on it back in 2005 from MacRumors, but much less in recent times. And I don't want to knock anyone's work, but I'll give you my perspective in good faith.

1. Writing about Apple simply isn't interesting anymore. Nor has it been for close to a decade. They lost me around the butterfly keyboard fiasco.

I know this isn't the full body of your work, but it's plenty of it. As a professional in the tech space for over 25 years, I went from being a devout Apple follower (installed the OSX beta on my Tibook back in the day), to basically not caring. They've gone from being innovative and evolving, and the best mix of Unix+GUI, to just being a system I'm forced to use for work. I'd rather use a Thinkpad/XPS/etc with Linux for anything else.

2. Your writing has gotten dramatically more... cynical over the years? Maybe it's just a side effect of growing older, as I know I have too. But it's also why I stopped blogging on my blog, which was popular enough in enough circles.

Like I said, this is just my perspective, so you can call me full of crap or whatever.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#147

Post by graeme »

doe88 wrote: post #101
rezmason wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for bringing my attention to the comment guidelines, I'll try to keep to them in the future. I assure you, I do write here in good faith. I'm open to listening to those who oppose the EU's position on Apple's ecosystem. I draw the line at people comparing Apple's circumstances with those portrayed in Harrison Bergeron. Apple, its developer community and its app ecosystem are unlike anyone in that story, and th…

On a small point, from what I understand, I think full credits must be given to JG on MD it seems to be his own idea and implementation, my recollection of what I heard him discuss about it on his podcast in the past, was that Aaron Swartz helped him with some ideas and notes.

Thanks for the correction! I'd edit my original comment if I could; it certainly makes the point stronger.

If creating Markdown doesn't make you a technologist, what does?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#148

Post by robenkleene »

erickhill wrote: post #48

People on HN are human beings, and there are definitely Apple tribes and non-Apple tribes. Gruber also posts more now than in recent memory political observations and commentary. As he's gotten older his blog has expanded beyond just the Apple scene. While I've always felt DF got insta-banned by fanbois of other tribes regardless of the content of his posts (which should be discouraged here in some way imo) it's quit…

Can anyone name another company that has something similar to a "non-Apple tribe"? And if not, why not? Which is really the question I can't figure out, why Apple makes some folks so angry and the same doesn't happen with other companies.

(Preempting the only example I can think of, would be Internet Explorer, circa ~2000, which isn't really comparable because no one was defending IE then.)

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#149

Post by tyleo »

I’ve been browsing the active list rather than the news list more recently. You can find that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/active

This is #9 on the active page but nonexistent on news. I get a sense that active has more interesting content these days. I think folks are way more sensitive this year and react with downvotes and active shows that content.

In some sense I think having an open mind and partaking in active discussions rather than just popular ones that please everyone is a better path forwards.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#150

Post by do_not_redeem »

jgruber wrote: post #128
do_not_redeem wrote: post #107

I don't see how a blog post complaining about vote counts is any more interesting than a comment complaining about vote counts. But ok, I'll bite. The articles are not ranked well because they're not interesting or useful. The one DF article I remember seeing recently is "Why Can’t We Screenshot Frames From DRM-Protected Video on Apple Devices?" and it seemed like just a fluffy post without any technical info and wit…

How then do you explain DF ranking #3 from 2007-2021, but dropping to #78 from 2021-2025? Are you saying my writing was significantly more interesting and useful for the first 14 years but dropped off a cliff starting in 2021, and the keen HN audience noticed the change immediately? You're making a perhaps-legitimate case for why DF should never have ranked well at HN. But the data shows that the opposite is true: fo…

I tried a lot of dates and I don't see any step change. I see a gradual decline.

  2006-present: 5th
  2010-present: 7th
  2015-present: 19th
  2020-present: 29th
Who knows why that is. Maybe HN's audience has changed over the decades. Maybe your writing has. Maybe the novelty factor for Apple content is gone. Maybe there's just more competition for the front page now that HN is more mainstream. I just think it's unlikely that PG woke up one day and decided to screw you in particular.

The Simpsons had far too many seasons, but Matt Groening eventually went on to create Futurama. I hope you figure things out.

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