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Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

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Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#142

Reminds me of this from 1986 (The Dead Kennedys), talking about the co-option of the Punk counter-culture by the mainstream: Punk's not dead; it just deserves to die.

You ready for a 2020s rehash of 1990s bro punk?

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly enjoy it, thank you very much

Sure, that's a state that will persist until it doesn't. One common barrier to suspension of disbelief is the Fermi Problem. A great deal of space opera just ignores it, but once you take the argument seriously it ruins much of the world building. If I want to ignore rationality of the world design and just read human achievement porn I'll head over to r/HFY.

[deleted]

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#144

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is.

+1 on my contra list for the book, which I have not read yet because the lingo annoybored me after two or three pages. > it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine So you've read works that build on Necromancer earlier. Care to share some of those books/authors and concepts?

"hardwired" (walter jon williams) felt pretty gibson-inspired, though given that it came out just two years after neuromancer perhaps they were just tapping into the same cyberpunk zeitgeist. (I guess it depends on to what extent you feel gibson singlehandedly invented cyberpunk as a genre; he certainly shaped the field the way tolkien did for fantasy, but there were others contributing to it too.)

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#145
post #87

there are still subcultures: the ones unpalatable to corporate interests; ones around topics that are illegal, very politically fringe, or centered on weird sex stuff

Sam Hyde and his canceled adult swim show World Peace seem to stand out in my mind in that it feels hard to call it “very” politically fringe these days (which is a scary thought from plenty of reasonable perspectives). He’s pretty hugely popular on the internet, could almost certainly be swallowed up by standard old corporatism, but has so far been spit back out for the most part. Perhaps a sign of just how dominant…

I mean old boy's super racist so that acts like kryptonite to repel normies.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe "merely aesthetic objects" in this case should be interpreted as "dead objects". The very word "artifact" signifies the distinction. These objects were once alive - they were parts of active interactions. Now they are dead and ossified. This is the difference between your album CDs when you actually listened to them, and then when you put them on a display case on the wall.

but in most cases they were dead before they were in the museum. In some cases dead before capitalism even existed. I don't really see how this amounts to a criticism of the museum itself (or capitalism alongside it). (I will agree in the cases where they were not: there are certainly a lot of infamous examples there, where even if the objects were dead relative to the culture that created them, they are also being s…

And lots came from places where the original culture of the objects had been replaced and/or was being erased.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was more my understanding. That even with todays population slowdown/shrinking, there is already worry that we wont be able to staff the jobs to keep society functioning. Suddenly you have a factory that makes pumps, it can't meet demand, so the factory that makes tractors doesn't meet demand, so farmers can't plant. We end up back with Oxen pulled plows. It seems that "The Peripheral" kind of skipped how they g…

If the world lost half it's people, it would be 1970s level population with modern technology. I think you and the parent poster are underestimating the amount of redundancy that exists in most every industry. Another way to think about it is the USA population is 3.5% of the world population and trade (both ways) makes up 20% of the USA GDP. If the rest of the world were walled off, we wouldn't go back to the stone…

>If the world lost half it's people, it would be 1970s level population with modern technology.

Sure, but with modern technology that they can't easily replace or repair. How long does the technology last? Is anything we make today made for longevity?

>I think you and the parent poster are underestimating the amount of redundancy

Redundancy is inefficient and costs money. We live in a world without warehouses, because just-in-time shipping is cheaper. We live in a world where every 6 months the soda can you get out of the vending machine has a little less aluminum in it than half a year ago because someone figured out how to shave a bit more off of that without it rupturing in transit. There's less redundancy in this world than you imagine, because reducing the redundancy cut costs and the stock price got a boost a few years ago. Why have spare parts on hand, when there will be even better parts manufactured next year?

>If the rest of the world were walled off, we wouldn't go back to the stone age.

Yeh, we would. It wouldn't happen instantly, but it would happen within decades. That would be true even if the population reduction were the only problem.

>If everyone else in the world fell over dead and the resources were available, the US would be massively better off than now.

People *are the resource*. Everything else is just rocks in the ground. You can have a million square miles of old growth forest, but it's not timber unless there are people who can do the lumberjack thing. You can have a trillion barrels of oil in the ground 200ft down, but it's not fuel and plastic unless there are people to pump it out and refine it. So on and so on. People were always the resource, and while not all people are effectively utilized all the time, the more you have the more resources you have. And there's this absurd network effect where two people are more than twice as useful as one person, and so on, so that when you have truly large numbers of people you have absurd amounts of resources.

Quite possibly, the only thing for which this effect isn't true is real estate. That's sort of a fixed supply.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#148
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to have some sort of simple effort filter for your subculture. Fashion is a simple one.

Then you have a subculture defined by fashion, which might be fun for the people in it, but it's not something anyone else has any stake in preserving. Nothing of value is lost if it disappears.

Cultures have identified themselves with visual cues since, well, probably before people were humans.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#149
post #23

"One may dye their hair green and wear their grandma’s coat all they want. Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself. Even those who would critique capital end up reinforcing it instead." —Joyce Messier in Disco Elysium Probably inspired by Mark Fisher: "The power of capitalist realism derives in part from the way that capitalism subsumes and consumes all of previous history: one effect of its 'sys…

While Disco Elysium gets a pass for it as it's meant primarily as an entertainment product (and the ridiculousness of the sentence might serve as a parody of the idea, which would be incredibly on brand for the game), I've found Mark Fisher's analysis in Capitalist Realism to be incredibly surface level and either wrong, or so vague, as to be meaningless, and it revolves around Fisher's obession with pop culture, and…

My understanding is that most people who dislike capitalism dislike multiple features of it, features that are not downstream of one single variable to be optimized.

So if you break up the wealth concentration effect, you are reducing dissatisfaction overall, but you are also reducing the likelihood of any future alteration to any number of more minor dissatisfactions that seem characteristic of this system — e.g., the way it makes people's lives repetitive, predictable, robotic; the way it often preferentially rewards behaviors that service medium-term goals rather than ultra-short or ultra-long term goals; the way it reduces the dimensionality of the activities that are needed, from the average individual, and the way this reduction of dimensions along which one might be needed can make a person feel less like a person, etc.

I do not myself agree with anti-capitalists that all these patterns are best explained in terms of capital. You see similar tendencies correlated with, for example, most any attempt to scale culture. My point is just that the people who are trying to formulate the grandiose complaint are, deep down, generally not trying to designate as evil some single feature (even if they have latched onto that feature as being strategically their best line of attack); generally, I think, they are not saying, "Man, I see this nose everywhere and am sick of this nose," they are saying, "Why is it that people seem to be looking increasingly similar?" which sentiment (however flawed statistically) we expert statisticians might charitably translate as, "Why is it that there seems increasingly to be a single stable equilibrium for an increasing number of the increasingly divided planes of our diminishing existence?"

And maybe that last formulation is also empirically incorrect — but isn't there a general thrust in it that you recognize? "One default, one optimal path and anything I do to get out of it is either wasteful or imitated until it is the rule." Can you come up with a tax policy that will break up the concentration effect at that level? Maybe you can. Would it really break up the monoculture, or would it strengthen it? I don't know. I suppose reformers and revolutionaries have always diverged at this juncture.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#150
post #86

Steve Albini captured this perfectly in an essay to The Baffler called "Commodify your Dissent". I highly recommend it, as it described the commodification of subculture that started in the 80's and really swallowed everything in the 1990's (in the USA at least); Here's the book: https://store.thebaffler.com/products/commodify-your-dissent One of his examples is that music and clothing companies realized there was a…

> "What? Where's the trick? He just bounced on his board" That's the natural state of innocence - their reference frame is how the experience feels (I'm going fast and almost falling over!). When the scene takes over, the reference point shifts to how it looks - the raw experience is overtaken in importance by progress and status and comparison.

> When the scene takes over, the reference point shifts to how it looks

I accept this valid criticism of "posers" but I'd like to add that there's a strange loop here. It feels alien to me, but lots of people I know like to watch videos of themselves doing things (e.g. choreographed dances). It certainly does help to see how to improve, but also they get satisfaction from seeing themselves do the thing.

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