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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#141

Post by emptysongglass »

tptacek wrote: post #63
intunderflow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another HN user pointed out Telegram does not store messages in plaintext: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41348228

That user seems to be misinformed, and appears to be discussing client-server encryption, not end-to-end encryption. That's unsurprising, because, among the many decisions Durov has made that have baffled cryptographers, attempting to confuse users about the implications of E2E vs. client-server encryption is one of the most notorious.

That user and the user you are replying to are not misinformed. They are perfectly correct.

Telegram does not store messages in plaintext. Period.

No matter how shrill the cries from Moxie Marlinespike and his adherents, E2EE is not the only form of encryption.

MTProto 2.0 is fully documented and everything the user linked described is true.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#142

Post by attendant3446 »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #125
NdMAND wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. [1] Signal is working to support an encrypted "cloud backup feature" (some hints on this are on their code base), as per "sync" that's already done in the forward direction by Signal (by sending all new messages to all your devices) I'm sure you could provide some sort of backward sync as well. [3] Signal already supports groups up to 1000 people iirc, I'm sure a read-only channel larger than that could a…

> Signal already supports groups up to 1000 people iirc, Which is where the practicality fails. This is why Telegram is the only app that works in large protests, unlike Signal. Time and again, Telegram proves that the lack of E2EE actually becomes its strength, as proven by the protestors in Myanmar, Hong Kong, Iran and more countries: https://x.com/Pinboard/status/1474096410383421452 I'm not really against E2EE, bu…

What baffles me is why people use a centralised messenger to organise a protest? and the one that is hosted in another country.

And what do you imply 'funded by the government' means for Signal? It's a nonprofit org, app has e2e encryption and clients are open-source. How is it worse than an app owned by an LLC in UAE, with no e2e encryption by default, unknown funding sources and no information about what's going on on the server?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#143

Post by LtWorf »

akho wrote: post #135
SSLy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it was actual dealers and hookers, it's just spam bots.

From what I see in these threads, it mostly depends on whether your local police chooses to enforce drug laws.

So you mean telegram is a secure platform for drug dealers in areas where they can just go about in the streets and yell "I SELL DRUGS!"?

Do we have any proof they aren't also doing that besides being on telegram and every other messenger?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#144

Post by LtWorf »

pelorat wrote: post #96
pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

> Also the author fails to understand that the complicity here doesn’t mean that companies in Europe are responsible for their users content In the EU, every company is responsible for what their users post on their service. There's a reason you won't find any (or very few) comment sections on the website of EU media and news companies. No one wanted to pay for the moderators needed, so when the law came around most…

Do you have a source for this very outlandish claim? Since most newspapers do have comment sections.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#145

Post by LtWorf »

JoelJacobson wrote: post #68

Strange, I haven't found any articles that mention the "Find People Nearby" and "Make Myself Visible" features, which seems to be core features criminals use to sell drugs/sex, finding new random clients in the area. The public non-encrypted aliases or bio of users often contain wordings that explicitly spell out they sell drugs or sex. For instance, one alias is "WEED COKE MDMA SPE..." I don't have a clear opinion o…

You believe those are real people who are really near you?

They aren't more near you than the ladies in "meet single women in..." are.

https://xkcd.com/713/

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#146

Post by herbst »

sofixa wrote: post #45
mediumsmart wrote: post #22

Thinking is not shitting Is there a difference between telegram and other social media messenger hybrids? Do they allow anti Russian content the same way they allow pro Russian content? Is that a problem?

Telegram allows everything and anything, including unsavoury/illegal content (supposedly you can report it and it gets taken down, but potentially the whole crux of the issue Durov was arrested over was that it's not enough/fast enough/law enforcement can't report). There are channels from Russian and Ukrainian officials making official announcements (today our city of X got hit by missiles, please go to ABC if you n…

> Telegram allows everything and anything, including unsavoury/illegal content

Which is simply wrong. Telegram is heavily banning users, channels and groups (if reported I assume) the difference is that they don't apply American morals but something a bit more open than that.

To give you a concrete example, it strictly follows basically the same morality terms for porn as onlyfans or pornhub (except the copy right that is)

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#147

Post by herbst »

uxhacker wrote: post #4

Is this an unintentional war by Europe on facebook, signal, etc? What will the outcome be? Will these services leave Europe? Will Europe change the rules ?

Facebook is in the headlines because it shits on people's privacy. Telegram is assumed to do the exact opposite.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#148

Post by herbst »

sjdhdhdj wrote: post #37
pjerem wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Google is taking down any illegal data they are asked to takedown or to give to law enforcement. Durov is not arrested to have hosted illegal content but to deliberately have not do anything against it when asked to. If you did something illegal via Gmail and the law enforcement asked for your mails to Google, they’d give them. Telegram voluntarily did not. Note that Durov/Telegram could have been easily prote…

No they stay up for weeks after dozens of reports. I suspect the ads are only taken off once the stolen credit card used in AdWords gets declined.

Same is true for whoever checks Ads for Facebook. Funnily enough telegram is way more restrictive with it's own ads.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#149

Post by yc-kraln »

surfingdino wrote: post #139
SSLy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I've been told it's sometimes also used by the Ukrainian diaspora to communicate with their families back in the war zone. Tough whatsapp appears to be more popular for that.

Its use is banned by Ukrainian military. I guess civilian use is still permitted.

It's banned because it leaks information (location, for instance) which is exactly the kind of thing you don't want leaking from your armed forces.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#150

Post by NayamAmarshe »

attendant3446 wrote: post #142
NayamAmarshe wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signal already supports groups up to 1000 people iirc, Which is where the practicality fails. This is why Telegram is the only app that works in large protests, unlike Signal. Time and again, Telegram proves that the lack of E2EE actually becomes its strength, as proven by the protestors in Myanmar, Hong Kong, Iran and more countries: https://x.com/Pinboard/status/1474096410383421452 I'm not really against E2EE, bu…

What baffles me is why people use a centralised messenger to organise a protest? and the one that is hosted in another country. And what do you imply 'funded by the government' means for Signal? It's a nonprofit org, app has e2e encryption and clients are open-source. How is it worse than an app owned by an LLC in UAE, with no e2e encryption by default, unknown funding sources and no information about what's going on…

> What baffles me is why people use a centralised messenger to organise a protest?

Because it works and because real world is not theoretical.

> And what do you imply 'funded by the government' means for Signal?

I'm not implying anything. I just listed the reasons why Durov doesn't trust state funded american encryption systems.

> unknown funding sources

What do you mean unknown? They're pretty known.

> no information about what's going on on the server

All server side code is unverifiable. In fact, Signal itself was running a totally different codebase than what it made public, for a whole year.

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