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My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

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Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#141

Post by whateverer »

overgard wrote: post #124
ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

Well; it would take more than anecdotal evidence for one thing. It's very easy for sensitive issues to be dominated by emotional anecdotes, to the point where only group think is tolerated and any sort of valid challenge is labeled. I often wish as a community we could use Crocker's rules ( http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules ) for this kind of thing. It would make for more interesting discussions. Anywa…

That was hilarious, man. Thanks for that.

Oh, wait, it was serious?!

Well now, how are you going to map this issue to something which isn't, in the end, anecdotes, since it pertains to human emotional responses? Are you asking those ethereal (probably fake, as you said, who even knows what this gender bias thing means?) other people to come up with a scale where they have to put it in 1-to-ten how belittled they felt?

Have you stopped to think of why these kinds of posts are held up to such scrutiny in contrast to, say, posts about other, not-related to gender, and thus mostly affecting men (this last point shouldn't need explanation), matters? Like, bad experiences with VCs or age discrimination and some such?

I would hazard a guess that the distinction is not due to something very rational, unless you get very cynical and paranoid.

Anyway...

> Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic.

It sort of is if its impact is mostly on women, and the behavior is mostly accused on men. Yes, this last point would require something more akin to actual statistics to be turned into the reason for some sort of castigation on men in general, but I haven't seen any of that as of now, really. Unless you count people feeling personally attacked by the existence of this discussion, of course.

> Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". [...]

Well, we are quite glad that none of these problems affect you, but this conversation wasn't about you in particular, was it?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#142

Post by whateverer »

ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

Using the vile arts of Necromancy, I bestow upon this dead post a grotesque mockery of life!

Edit: Well now I'm dead too. Should've been wiser to just copy+paste a dead comment. Still, this is stupid.

- points by microarchitect

I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply. Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article.

Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up.

Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here. I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle.

Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#143

Post by NotMyMorals »

rogerbraun wrote: post #136
NotMyMorals wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be separate but equal. The horror - they even have segregated bathrooms!

This is actually something I think will go away once we manage to overcome sexism in society. There is really no reason for it at all.

This is actually something I think will go away once we manage to overcome sexism in society. There is really no reason for it at all.

My subjective impression of you and your "anti-sexism" is that you are an ideological fanatic. Fortunately, it's not likely that you and your kind will ever "overcome sexism in society" and it's likely that public restrooms will remain segregated by gender.

Your understanding of the differences between the sexes seems based more on ideological, abstract categories than practical, biologically based considerations, which is often the case with ideological and religious fanaticism.

In my opinion, your "anti-sexism" is just rehashed, 20th century cultural Marxism that is fortunately becoming less popular. I hope we can all progress beyond such failed, politically and religiously motivated trends.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#144

Post by NotMyMorals »

Confusion wrote: post #122
NotMyMorals wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competent men do not 'show of their skills, brag and one-up other men'. Yes they most certainly do. Yes, they may be technically competent, but they are socially incompetent, because they never progressed beyond that juvenile behavior. Ok, now you have admitted that technically competent men may in fact exhibit those behaviors, so now you're saying they are "socially incompetent." You are wrong in both cases, highly…

Wow, sorry, I didn't realize you were a brogrammer

I looked up "brogrammer."

"A popular, cool, or otherwise normal person who has become intrigued by the fun of programming. Usually unliked by the nerdy programmers for getting all of the friends and the girls, while creating cool and useful applications."

Was that meant to be an insult?

One has to wonder if "male feminists" and "nice guys" share the same delusion that "white knighting" females will increase their sexual success, and advocating "more women in tech" is an excuse to have potential mates in closer proximity, and has nothing to do with any moral crusade or actual benefit for the tech industry itself?

One wonders if "male feminists" are simply trying to compensate for their personal deficiencies?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#145

Post by barry-cotter »

ordinary wrote: post #34
Udo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it has to do with the response, but I can't agree with the main point of it which is due to selection bias I think (not gender differences): To me, and I suspect most men, we’d see Dave’s behavior as a call to arms. Dave was raising the stakes and even though his behavior was clearly rude, it also demonstrated that he had a mastery over the material. If this is the core of the article's point, I don't agree with…

I don't like how the article implies this makes me less of a man. I don't think it does that, but nevertheless, this raises an interesting question that I've been having real trouble answering, so maybe you (or others) could help me out: why do you dislike it when people make such implications? Do you feel you're worth less if you're perceived to be less manly?

Less manly sounds stupid. Saying that other people are performing a status play intended to raise their status at your expense conveys the same information without making anyone sound like an idiot.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#146

Post by [deleted] »

jellicle wrote: post #11

That's not a call for single-sex education. That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher. >Dave was really excited by the class, and, like me and the other volunteers, had a lot of experience with Python. Sounds like Dave w…

[deleted]

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#147

Post by [deleted] »

Alex3917 wrote: post #50
wisty wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think teaching 101 covers widely discredited education theories (stuff like Myress-Briggs, visual auditory and kinesthetic learning styles, and the like) rather than practical teaching tips. There's a practicum to teach them how to teach.

I mean if you actually get a masters in education, it's almost all practical stuff. You need to take entire classes on things like how to write on a chalkboard and how to spot kids who are being abused at home. Educational theory and research is only one or two classes out of the two years. And classroom management is one of the biggest topics, and it's the first thing you get evaluated on when you're doing your stud…

[deleted]

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#148

Post by fleitz »

Using the Montessori method would have solved many of the issues presented by the OP.

Dave would have been in a group where he'd be able to show others directly, if Dave wasn't in a group, he'd be quickly identified by the teacher as someone who didn't need help and could possibly benefit the group.

  Dave: 
  Teacher: Dave, it looks like you know a lot about arrays, Laura is struggling a bit, can you help her out?
Dave was seeking attention and to be recognized as having advanced skill, the Montessori method would have allowed Dave to put his talents to good use while not being a disruption to the class.

Dave isn't a jerk, it's just that the instructor is using antiquated teaching methods from the 19th century, and under utilizing his teaching resources. Clearly this person is someone who's authority should indeed be challenged.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#149

Post by DanBC »

smsm42 wrote: post #97
ender7 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, there is nothing to prevent a 'female Dave' from joining the next single-sex educational group. This is not to imply that there aren't good reasons for women-only education, but this isn't one of them.

What are the good reasons for gender-segregated education? (I hope it's not offtopic since the article itself discusses this)

Women do better in single sex schools (in England); but men do worse.

There's a natural experiment in England where there are quite a lot of single sex schools. There are a bunch of confounding factors that are hard to kludge out - social-economic backgrounds, etc.

Some cultures and religions prefer the sexes to be separated. This may not be a good reason to many people.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#150

Post by andrewflnr »

irahul wrote: post #109
jamesbritt wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim is that there is a notable difference in group dynamics.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that all females(or males) exhibit same behavioral and learning traits. And even if this happens to be true, then why stop at gender-segregation? How about divide on gender, then divide on introvert-extrovert, then divide on active-passive, then divide on "external validation seeker"-"doesn't give a shit about external validation", then divide on "interested in lear…

  I am pretty sure you will be left with a class of 1 in the end.
You say that like it's a bad thing. In the ideal case, we would have completely personalized education for every student. Most of what prevents it is lack of resources (and then of course you would need teachers smart enough to make it work).
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