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The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

bbc.co.uk

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Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#141

Post by Uchikoma »

muyuu wrote: post #103
Uchikoma wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As this pops up everywhere, could you please cite a source from e.g. a ECB protocol or otherwise how Germany "controls the rates" or "enforces shockingly low borrowing rates" in violation of the ECB charta? The ECB back then set rates in accordance with inflation, e.g. to keep it low. That's the charta of the ECB. When a high inflation country joins a construct that has a goal of keeping inflation low, then yes you h…

The rates always follow the needs of Germany and sometimes France. The rates are discretionary and set by the president of the ECB. Borrowing in most countries with a "hot" Real Estate market was unstoppable. Only higher rates like they historically had could have controlled it. The dimension of the damage done by this policy is incalculable. There was no compromise. If a middle-ground, 5-6% rate had been set, the co…

From the ECB homepage:

"The ECB is the central bank for Europe's single currency, the euro. The ECB’s main task is to maintain the euro's purchasing power and thus price stability in the euro area."

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#142

Post by batista »

Uchikoma wrote: post #96
muyuu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has massive part on it by enforcing such shockingly low borrowing rates across the Eurozone. It completely destroyed countries with immature Real Estate landscapes, countries used to high inflation rates that collectively shot themselves in the foot. Germany and France took no hostages when they were stagnating and failed to meet EU requirements. They gave absolutely no regard to these countries and now they…

As this pops up everywhere, could you please cite a source from e.g. a ECB protocol or otherwise how Germany "controls the rates" or "enforces shockingly low borrowing rates" in violation of the ECB charta? The ECB back then set rates in accordance with inflation, e.g. to keep it low. That's the charta of the ECB. When a high inflation country joins a construct that has a goal of keeping inflation low, then yes you h…

>"The ECB is the central bank for Europe's single currency, the euro. The ECB’s main task is to maintain the euro's purchasing power and thus price stability in the euro area."

Hmm, they forgot to add that they are a front for the interests of Germany foremost and France second.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#143

Post by batista »

Uchikoma wrote: post #140
muyuu wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone in the US decided the interbank interest rate, then they would have shared responsibility. You are very misguided. The EU is one thing and the eurozone is a different thing. The UK does have some economic independence and very importantly, monetary independence. Those countries in the eurozone have surrendered their monetary policy to the ECB, and the ECB responds mostly to the interests of Germany, follow…

Yes it is out of sync b/c Germany cut costs in the 2000, cut social security, changed job laws, increased the minimum pension age etc while the southern countries increased spending and increased massively labor costs.

Even with those "cuts" the German wages are still 2 times over the "southern countries".

Except if you mean to say that those in the South are less humans and do not deserve even half the wages and social welfare that Germans do --which Germany has historically said in a few occasions...

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#144

Post by muyuu »

Uchikoma wrote: post #141
muyuu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rates always follow the needs of Germany and sometimes France. The rates are discretionary and set by the president of the ECB. Borrowing in most countries with a "hot" Real Estate market was unstoppable. Only higher rates like they historically had could have controlled it. The dimension of the damage done by this policy is incalculable. There was no compromise. If a middle-ground, 5-6% rate had been set, the co…

From the ECB homepage: "The ECB is the central bank for Europe's single currency, the euro. The ECB’s main task is to maintain the euro's purchasing power and thus price stability in the euro area."

Which has been done at the expense of causing massive persistent damage in some "secondary" countries in the EU.

As a said before, there was a middle ground, but it wasn't considered. Higher rates during the last decade would have caused stagnation in Germany but would have avoided the complete demolition of some countries. Note that this demolition process was not only beneficial for Germany, but also for bank tycoons in these countries - their direction is now a bunch of billionaires despite whatever happens to their banks now. In these countries 2 full generations basically have had their lives destroyed from being out of the housing and job market chronically, and those with a job will have most of their disposable income confiscated. These are the really important figures usually not told in the BBC, Euronews or Deutsche Welle.

And the worst part of it is the "rescue" - the rescue consists in ensuring the banks in the most affected countries don't need to sell their massive housing stocks in a firesale. It basically consists in pegging housing prices in these impoverished countries so their average house costs twice the price of a house in an average German city, keeping 30+ year olds (the generation coming out of school during the euro-originated frenzy from last decade) homeless or living with their parents. The rescue basically consists in perpetuating this tragedy: a lost generation, birthrates to the ground (impossible to emancipate), people deprived of a sane life plan and forced to be enslaved for decades. Because that's what happens when you "so kindly" inject money to these over-stocked banks. They. Won't. Let. Their. Stocks (housing mostly). Lose. Value. This will only happen when you cannot continue "helping", the sooner the better. But this will ultimately happen, thankfully.

That's the rescue plan. Social collapse in several countries from the eurozone so all banks (both rescued banks and very especially lenders - in supposedly "responsible" countries) can be happy and, very importantly, German banks (and French banks, Spanish banks, British banks in the case of Ireland, ...) don't have to take responsibility for over-lending. The rescue is mainly a rescue to the banks of ALL parties disguised as a rescue to these "filthy irresponsible P.I.I.G.S."

Fucking let them bankrupt and take the hit, you have done enough damage already. Say buh-bye to all the money lent instead of pretending to be "saving Europe".

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#145

Post by muyuu »

Uchikoma wrote: post #140
muyuu wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone in the US decided the interbank interest rate, then they would have shared responsibility. You are very misguided. The EU is one thing and the eurozone is a different thing. The UK does have some economic independence and very importantly, monetary independence. Those countries in the eurozone have surrendered their monetary policy to the ECB, and the ECB responds mostly to the interests of Germany, follow…

Yes it is out of sync b/c Germany cut costs in the 2000, cut social security, changed job laws, increased the minimum pension age etc while the southern countries increased spending and increased massively labor costs.

You seem to think "southern countries" collectively decided to increase costs while Germany took the high road. Southern Countries HAD their costs increased and their internal inflation out of control, so the ECB could help out the then-struggling Germany and France duo.

Germany was stagnating in 2000 and MISSED their promised objectives, while Southern Countries were growing healthily. Then they found themselves with extremely low rates to help growth in Germany and France, which was basically "free money" and an out-of-cycle policy they simply did not know how to deal with. Their internal corruption did the rest.

There is one way to enforce responsibility: stop giving away free money, either be it through low rates, or through "rescue packages" done to ensure your banks won't need to swallow a massive hole from not having their lent money back.

A bit too late for this, but hey, better late than never.

- raise the rates. NEVER drop the rates below 5% as long as there is a single overheating economy in the monetary Union.

- drop the debt. Suck it up. No more rescue plans, also buh-bye to the money irresponsibly lent away. Maybe you didn't know this but you have already dropped a lot of it. Now it's when the big monster Merkel has been avoiding will rear its ugly head: the same will have to happen with other MUCH bigger countries than Greece. This will cost Germany and all the other countries massively, you will be in RECESSION for some years.

Otherwise they will be out of the Euro and then you can bet your lucky pants they will declare bankruptcy and they won't repay the debt or any rescue we (EU members including the UK that's not even in the eurozone) have given them, as Argentina did not that long ago when they let their currency float. Simply because they are unable at this point to go into a position from which they can repay.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#146

Post by Uchikoma »

muyuu wrote: post #144
Uchikoma wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the ECB homepage: "The ECB is the central bank for Europe's single currency, the euro. The ECB’s main task is to maintain the euro's purchasing power and thus price stability in the euro area."

Which has been done at the expense of causing massive persistent damage in some "secondary" countries in the EU. As a said before, there was a middle ground, but it wasn't considered. Higher rates during the last decade would have caused stagnation in Germany but would have avoided the complete demolition of some countries. Note that this demolition process was not only beneficial for Germany, but also for bank tycoo…

"Higher rates during the last decade would have caused stagnation in Germany but would have avoided the complete demolition of some countries."

No. There is consensus that during the decade Germany as a country, the people and companies were not borrowing enough. Low rates had no impact on that. So there would not be any stagnation in Germany with higher rates, as companies and people did not borrow. The government is cutting costs especially on the social cost side for a decade now, they have not been Keynes spenders in any way.

Economy growth in the last years came from massive social cuts, restructuring employment laws, increasing the minimum pension age over several years (will be 67 in 2012), cutting early pension programs and cost cutting in companies. Germany is exporting (too much?) because the price per unit cost is low compared to other European countries.

If your argument would have anything behind it, there should be numbers how borrowing increased in Germany , which it did not.

e.g. take a look here

http://www.businessinsider.com/richard-koo-the-world-in-bala...

Exhibit 35,36,37.

I'd like to have a thorough discussion, but I find your arguments lacking facts, logic and details and they are more on a conspiracy side of things.

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#147

Post by nickik »

nickik wrote: post #139
anotherthrow wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I dont know when the stoped exactlly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act 'Many commentators have stated that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act’s repeal of the affiliation restrictions of the Glass-Steagall Act was an important cause of the late-2000s financial crisis.' Here in the UK we had something similar with the 'big bang' of bank liberalisation in the 1980s, resulting in the City of London becomin…

Fanny Mea and Fredy Mac pushed down the cost of housing (the where allowed to directly lend from the fed, that had low intresst rates) and set false insentives to build houses. That (among some other small things) was the big thing that led to the crash. The deregulations allowed banks to be more agressiv, that is only bad if you give them a strong insentiv to be agressiv. Maybe it mad some of them more unstable but…

comments or just downvotes?

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#148

Post by Uchikoma »

batista wrote: post #143
Uchikoma wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is out of sync b/c Germany cut costs in the 2000, cut social security, changed job laws, increased the minimum pension age etc while the southern countries increased spending and increased massively labor costs.

Even with those "cuts" the German wages are still 2 times over the "southern countries". Except if you mean to say that those in the South are less humans and do not deserve even half the wages and social welfare that Germans do --which Germany has historically said in a few occasions...

Again, this is not what happened.

e.g. see here

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/7536

Unit labor costs in Germany increased 5% (essentially was flat) from 2000 to 2011, Greece costs increased 40%, Spain 30%, Italy 30%.

The graph very clearly explains why Germany has substantial economic growth.

(Google "unit labor costs europe" for other sources)

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#149

Post by Uchikoma »

smcl wrote: post #9
kamaal wrote: post #4

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor di…

I don't think that's why these stats are interesting. There seems to be a stereotype of lazy Greeks being bailed out by hard-working Germans. These OECD stats (which I originally checked out after an episode of Radio Open Source featuring economist Mark Blyth) show that this is just another example of an ugly, incorrect stereotype.

The reason for economic growth in Germany and the crisis in parts of Europe can easily be found in the first graph:

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/7536

(Google unit labor costs for more sources)

Re: The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

#150

Post by Uchikoma »

jakeonthemove wrote: post #118

Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right. Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...

But only recently. It was a nightmare founding a limited 10 years ago (GmbH) when I founded a startup, it's quite easy today when my wife founded a startup (UG).

Many Germans founded Ltds in Britain on paper, that made the government see the need to change some laws.

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