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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#141

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cherryteastain wrote: post #129
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> looking like hypocrites This is the paradox of tolerance [1]. It’s a worn discussion and far from hypocritical. In any case, I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people and allies. More pointedly when the other side is a dictatorship. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

That's the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc. Make of that what you will.

> the exact argument e.g. Turkey used to ban Wikipedia/Youtube/Twitter etc.

Which one(s)? (Genuinely curious.)

Also, was it a ban or divestment requirement? What wins me over on this bill is it isn’t a ban. It isn’t even a requirement to be controlled by an American. ByteDance could sell TikTok to a Korean or Hugarian or Middle Eastern country—even Turkey—and be in compliance with the law.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#142

Post by tmaly »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #63
tmaly wrote: post #41

My understanding is that this is a much broader bill than just TikTok. It would give the president the authority to ban any app or website both foreign and domestic based on the wording of the text of the bill. Can anyone verify if this is true in the text of what was passed?

> would give the president the authority to ban any app or website both foreign and domestic based No, it has to be controlled by a foreign adversary country [1]. The broadest power is in 3(a)(ii) on page 10, which lets the President designate an app as a foreign adversary controlled application if it is a significant national security threat following public notice and reporting requirements. But even then, it’s a d…

I guess the "and" on 3(b)(i)-(ii) clears up my concerns of "any" website/app.

(B) a covered company that— (i) is controlled by a foreign adversary; and (ii) that is determined by the President to present a significant threat to the national security of the United States following the issuance of ...

Thanks for the link to the text.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#143

Post by basisword »

I'm interested to see how this plays out. TikTok is popular enough that I can imagine it's making enough money outside the US to just let them ban it and not sell. The whole thing is interesting to watch from a non-China/US perspective. It feels like a move to make the US government look strong to its citizens. A move that, unusually, can have bipartisan support. It feels like propaganda really. And judging by the comments here and elsewhere it seems to be working. Of all the 'threats' faced by the US, a Chinese social media app is really at the bottom of the totem pole. US elections are far more influenced by nefarious actors on US owned social media platforms - but nobody wants to do anything about that.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#144

Post by Manuel_D »

throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

Another way to look at it is the fact that China does not let American social media in its market. Why should America give China access to it's markets when that's not reciprocated?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#145

Post by emursebrian »

2four2 wrote: post #9

As much as I don't care about tiktok going away, and acknowledge the privacy and security risks, there's something about banning a highly popular website that doesn't sit right with me. Is there precedent in the USA for anything like this?

Yes, it was done with Grindr in 2019.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/us-pushes-chinese-owner-of-g...

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#146

Post by pokepim »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #124
dauertewigkeit wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? Because we are not China and our institutions are built on presumption of freedom of speech and freedom of thought and democracy. If we start emulating China, we will become China. Our institutions are supposed to be robust enough to handle local and foreign propaganda and if they are not, then censorship is certainly not a solution that w…

Free trade should go both ways. It's ridiculous to let Chinese apps and websites operate in the West when China blocks so many Western sites and apps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...

[dead]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#147

Post by LordKeren »

farleykr wrote: post #52

What are the chances that TikTok really gets comprehensively banned in the US? This seems like the kind of thing that would get stuck in a Bermuda triangle of litigation while nothing ever happens.

Given that this passed by a wide margin and largely bipartisan support, it is very unlikely that litigation challenges would be able to stop the ban.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#148

Post by rusty_venture »

piva00 wrote: post #101
tqi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. There is little to no evidence that CA was able to manipulate anyone other than gullible campaign managers. And frankly the idea that a list of pages someone liked could be used to create a skeleton key that turned people into Republican voters is... far-fetched. Similarly, I haven't seen anyone actually articulate what the risk from TikTok…

> Similarly, I haven't seen anyone actually articulate what the risk from TikTok is. Profiling of a large population, you put them in cohorts, and slowly shift what you show to these cohorts (based on their preferences, worldviews, etc.) to slowly nudge them into a worldview you'd like. It won't be 100% effective but it can definitely shift perceptions, if each cohort is siloed into their own reality bubbles through…

This is fascinating. I think this nuanced approach to shifting the perspectives and beliefs of the population of an adversarial nation is exactly the threat that is being missed by other commentators saying "what does TikTok do that's so bad anyway?" The point is that it is extremely subtle and yet very powerful...if China can convince US citizens that China deserves to rule Taiwan, for instance, the US government may find itself without the popular support or political will to take action to protect Taiwanese democracy in the event of an incursion by China.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#149

Post by basisword »

fullshark wrote: post #134
throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

I think it's both. You don't think it's possible TikTok usage data is being accumulated for prominent Americans and/or their children for the purpose of intelligence gathering? I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't happening.

...what 'intelligence' would they be gathering though? What actionable intelligence could be cleaned from someones TikTok viewing habits?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#150

Post by ProxCoques »

tqi wrote: post #61
andiareso wrote: post #13

I'm a big proponent of free speech and the first amendment, but I agree with the reasonings for banning it or forcing US owners. China most definitely has their hands in the data that TikTok amasses and given its popularity it's not an insignificant risk to U.S. citizens. We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. It'll be interesting to see what legal challenges come up if the bill pa…

> We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. There is little to no evidence that CA was able to manipulate anyone other than gullible campaign managers. And frankly the idea that a list of pages someone liked could be used to create a skeleton key that turned people into Republican voters is... far-fetched.

https://sts-news.medium.com/youre-doing-it-wrong-notes-on-cr...
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