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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#111

Post by cherryteastain »

rusty_venture wrote: post #74
throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

What's your point? China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? "The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting", e.g. to undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions, to gain the ability to compromise our critical infrastructure, and to influence our…

The point is that the West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets. Going beyond, it claimed that (in the post Reagan/Thatcher era) that free markets are a prerequisite for being a rich country. Yet, the moment free markets became inconvenient, the west dropped that narrative and went full protectionist. As a result, China gets a propaganda victory in the eyes of non-Western nations.

All things considered, it's a minor problem for the US/West. Just looking like hypocrites. Compared to, say, the 2003 Iraq war it's a nothingburger.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#113

Post by nickthegreek »

endisneigh wrote: post #22

Pass a privacy law, stop arbitrarily banning. What exactly would be the justification for forcing the sale rather than passing a law solving the actual problem?

The actual problem is threat of algo manipulation in times of crisis. But they apparently don't want to make that their argument. It's the only valid justification imo. Data privacy should apply to all companies.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#114

Post by simpletone »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49
Nesco wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t Europeans do the same with US social networks then?

> Why shouldn’t Europeans do the same with US social networks then? We’re not your foreign adversary? (If we are, we shouldn’t have an obligation to defend you.) This bill permits TikTok’s sale to a European owner. It just bans its ownership by a foreign adversary country.

[flagged]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#115

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cherryteastain wrote: post #111
rusty_venture wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? "The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting", e.g. to undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions, to gain the ability to compromise our critical infrastructure, and to influence our…

The point is that the West painted itself as the defender of freedom, democracy and free markets. Going beyond, it claimed that (in the post Reagan/Thatcher era) that free markets are a prerequisite for being a rich country. Yet, the moment free markets became inconvenient, the west dropped that narrative and went full protectionist. As a result, China gets a propaganda victory in the eyes of non-Western nations. All…

> looking like hypocrites

This is the paradox of tolerance [1]. It’s a worn discussion and far from hypocritical.

In any case, I’d rather be right than consistent. Particularly when it comes to the survival and wellbeing of our people and allies. More pointedly when the other side is a dictatorship.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#116

Post by dauertewigkeit »

rusty_venture wrote: post #74
throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

What's your point? China literally has a nationwide firewall to prevent Western ideas from entering the minds of its subjects. Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns? "The supreme art of war is to defeat the enemy without fighting", e.g. to undermine Americans' faith in our democratic institutions, to gain the ability to compromise our critical infrastructure, and to influence our…

> Why should we throw open our digital borders to Chinese influence campaigns?

Because we are not China and our institutions are built on presumption of freedom of speech and freedom of thought and democracy. If we start emulating China, we will become China. Our institutions are supposed to be robust enough to handle local and foreign propaganda and if they are not, then censorship is certainly not a solution that would be compatible with the liberal democratic values that we are supposed to hold.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#117

Post by lagichikool »

mynameishere wrote: post #25

So much trash and they ban this trash because China controls it. I honestly can't think of one thing China has done to harm me. The people who control the US media, however...

Maybe not you personally millions of Americans are being directly harmed by China every year.

They're threatening to invade Taiwan, a friendly and sovereign country. They're supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They're spying and stealing IP. They're harassing and threatening dissidents in the US. And the list goes on.

Probably the most aggressively awful thing China is doing is deliberately flooding the US with Fentanyl and other drugs, killing far more Americans than all gun deaths (including suicides!) per year.

The Chinese government is incredibly hostile toward the US government and population.

It'd be really great if China and Russia were friendly countries. The way the UK, EU, Japan, and most other major countries relate to the US. No one would like it more than most Americans.

But China and Russia are run by dictators and dictators have a tendency toward doing evil. It makes sense to shield ourselves against as much of their evil shit as we reasonably can.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#118

Post by kevinventullo »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #55
endisneigh wrote: post #22

Pass a privacy law, stop arbitrarily banning. What exactly would be the justification for forcing the sale rather than passing a law solving the actual problem?

To do the second thing, you'd need some kind of statement of what the problem was.

… which can be understood and articulated by the median congressperson. A tall order indeed.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#119

Post by JumpCrisscross »

simpletone wrote: post #114
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why shouldn’t Europeans do the same with US social networks then? We’re not your foreign adversary? (If we are, we shouldn’t have an obligation to defend you.) This bill permits TikTok’s sale to a European owner. It just bans its ownership by a foreign adversary country.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#120

Post by ryandvm »

organsnyder wrote: post #2

It's amazing the lengths we'll go in the United States to avoid passing a comprehensive national privacy protections law.

Privacy isn't the main problem. Having an mildly adversarial nation state wielding a massive propaganda firehouse on US citizens is the bigger issue.
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