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Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

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Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#141

Post by mschuster91 »

nradov wrote: post #66
hx8 wrote: post #41

> To trace the importation of seafood from factories that appear to be using North Korean labor, my team reviewed trade data, shipping contracts, and the codes that are stamped on seafood packages to monitor food safety. We found that, since 2017, ten of these plants have together shipped more than a hundred and twenty thousand tons of seafood to more than seventy American importers, which supplied grocery stores inc…

Trade sanctions are actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies. They are at least slightly effective by shifting a fraction of the profits from sanctioned entities to middlemen, so better than nothing. But mostly they allow countries to pretend like they're doing something without actually taking kinetic action. For example, there are currently a variety of sanctions against the Ru…

> For example, there are currently a variety of sanctions against the Russian and Iranian petroleum industries. So, they sell at a slight discount to neutral countries such as India which then re-export the "clean" oil.

At least for Russian petroleum stuff, it's not as easy. The existing pipeline networks from the oil and gas fields are mostly focused on delivering to Europe due to history (everything east of the former GDR was supplied with gas and oil from Russia), and that is coming to an end rather sooner than later as Germany is building up import capacity from the North Sea and Croatia from the Mediterranean (a new LNG terminal on Krk and the existing oil infrastructure on Omisalj), as well as Ukraine planning to end oil transit in 2025.

Alternative transportation capacity is very very scarce as there are barely any pipelines and Russia doesn't have accessible sea ports in abundance.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#142

Post by yieldcrv »

metaphor wrote: post #65
yieldcrv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never forget that American Exceptionalism relies on comparing itself to the most mismanaged places in the world, ignoring the existence of developed nations entirely We uniquely have the resources to be better and more advanced and create a more productive society with those resources, and merely lack the consensus to do so. There is no need to compare ourselves to anyone else to rationalize our incompetencies, conse…

Why merely compare ourselves to the most mismanaged places in the world when we can imitate them under everyones' nose [1] by directly importing the model into an oft forgotten small patch of American soil in the middle of the Pacific that's out of sight and out of mind, then entrap hordes of Chinese sweatshop laborers at slave wages, brutal hours, and deplorable living conditions to manufacture garments labeled "Mad…

reminds me of the idea of derailing any conversation about business in the US because of labor practices in a far flung remote region that Congress refused to pass any reforms over

Its how Americans talk about some other places so I always find that amusing

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#143

Post by givemeethekeys »

Despegar wrote: post #122
givemeethekeys wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia disagrees: "In February–March 2021, South Korea continued to omit North Korea's "enemy" status from the South Korean military's White Paper after downgrading the status of Japan" It gets worse from there. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93South_Kore...

Apparently you have a higher standard for "get along" than I do. I think not being actively at war for decades qualifies.

Definitely, yes. I'd say that the US has a better relationship with China than North Korea has with South Korea. The US and China get along, while disagreeing and even being in a trade war. North and South Korea are in a stalemate - peace was never declared and they have guns pointed at each other at all times.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#144

Post by dsign »

Despegar wrote: post #98

It's time for the US to end the sanctions on North Korea. The abuse workers face is a straight line result from the fact that virtually all aspects of their economy are under total embargo. North Korea is a nuclear state, and they will never go back to not being one. North Koreans have been working in China for decades and that won't change either because China is not going to let them become a failed state.

The sanctions are abusive, but what is the alternative? To allow a kingdom that is so pro-depravity to subsist unmolested?

And, is it a matter of sanctions, or national policy that causes the most pain? We don’t have a lot of data, but we have some: that I know of, there are three countries in the world with extensive sanctions. One of them, Russia, hasn’t been communist in three decades. I heard that there is political repression there, but despite the sanctions, not starvation or even economic hardship.

The other two countries, Cuba and North Korea, are still communist. North Korea is not doing well. And Cuba is hanging from a thread; citizens survive thanks to direct support from their expats to the families at home, but the country’s infrastructure is ruined. In terms of modern commodities, 19th century Europe had way less access to trade than sanctioned Cuba, and yet made better roads and enjoyed better postal services and a much vibrant financial sector.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#145

Post by Throw494955 »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #137

> Since then, North Koreans have been sent to Russia, Poland, Qatar, Uruguay, and Mali. Poland? Poland is a EU member country, is it legal to employ North Korean slaves in the EU? Update: Found the following link https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-00624... Some Christel Schaldemose was asking the European Parliament the same question back in 2017, but I didn't see an answer.

People send to EU are not some slaves, but highly loyal party members.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#146

Post by kurthr »

xwolfi wrote: post #110
kurthr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but to be fair... you can't call it socialism. NK has been a dictatorship for literally generations. Even SK has only been democratic for a relatively short time. Just because they put democratic or socialist or even communist in their name doesn't make them so.

But have we seen that many people calling themselves socialists not ending up with the same problem ? Socialism doesnt work because it doesnt consider greed as a positive force. Starting from there, every sign of greed is suppressed until remains only an oppressive bureaucracy in charge of hammering any sign of attempt of maybe earning something. Socialism is not evil, it's even benevolent: but it's flawed because it…

Wait, Hong Kong was socialist before the National Security Law was passed?

I've spent some months in HK-Kowloon (2002-2016) and it was one of the most capitalist places I've ever visited from the entrepreneurs running food stalls and working night markets, to the media (granted my Cantonese is minimal, but there were english language newspapers), to the massive banking business. There was a desperation, hustle, and exploitation along with the positives I expect from capitalism. There seemed to be basic social support, housing, and medical care... but that's true in the US, which I think is not socialist. It seems to me that most of Europe is more socialist, but I'm not here to judge what people want or what's best for them.

Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, and even Germany, France or England are more socialist than I've experienced in HK, TW, or Singapore. They have pretty well established democracies and rule of law, but basic needs like food/health/housing/child care are pretty well comfortably provided by their governments. More so than past the New Territories.

I really wish you the best in HK now. It's a beautiful place full of great people who've worked really hard. Financial leverage provided a lot of jobs and made the rich wealthy, but if that investment fails to turn a profit, everyone will have to pay for it.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#147

Post by AlecSchueler »

dsign wrote: post #144
Despegar wrote: post #98

It's time for the US to end the sanctions on North Korea. The abuse workers face is a straight line result from the fact that virtually all aspects of their economy are under total embargo. North Korea is a nuclear state, and they will never go back to not being one. North Koreans have been working in China for decades and that won't change either because China is not going to let them become a failed state.

The sanctions are abusive, but what is the alternative? To allow a kingdom that is so pro-depravity to subsist unmolested? And, is it a matter of sanctions, or national policy that causes the most pain? We don’t have a lot of data, but we have some: that I know of, there are three countries in the world with extensive sanctions. One of them, Russia, hasn’t been communist in three decades. I heard that there is politi…

The level and type of sanctions directed at Russia have been nowhere near what those others face. Until the recent war broke out the west was happily doing almost ever kind of business with Russia and even now many of these connections remain. There was even a big push to open economic relations throughout the 90s.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#148

Post by csomar »

jimt1234 wrote: post #104
aussieguy1234 wrote: post #40

There needs to be a law that, for any kind of Chinese seafood to be imported, foreign officials must be allowed to inspect the conditions. They already do it for food safety. When espionage laws make other monitoring impossible, there can be zero trust in these companies to do the right thing. Allow detailed, random inspections, or your imports are blocked and you make no money.

When I lived in China years ago, I had a Chinese/local girlfriend whose brother-in-law owned a factory that "manufactured" small mechanical parts, like bolts, screws, springs, wire - stuff like that. She said that all the manufacturing was actually done in North Korea. The "factory" that he owned in China was all for show. He always knew when inspectors were coming, days in advance, and so he'd hire a few locals for…

I'd be suspicious. Are you saying that China exports/production is actually coming from North Korea; because based on that North Korea would be the actual super power.

My guess is that this is a rather limited trade that on the scale of things (700million chinese workers vs 100K North Korean) is really negligible.

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#149

Post by csomar »

throwaway290 wrote: post #90
hx8 wrote: post #41

> To trace the importation of seafood from factories that appear to be using North Korean labor, my team reviewed trade data, shipping contracts, and the codes that are stamped on seafood packages to monitor food safety. We found that, since 2017, ten of these plants have together shipped more than a hundred and twenty thousand tons of seafood to more than seventy American importers, which supplied grocery stores inc…

> How can something like this be allowed into The United States. Are trade sanctions actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies? Not just US. Did you know that as soon as Russian sanctions began with the latest war escalation, German exports of chips and machinery to Kyrgyzstan rose 900%? (I'd be the first to say this sounds like a conspiracy but by now even Reuters reported on it)

Problem is, if you sanction all the countries willing to launder for Russia, you'll probably end up with a few Western countries (and not even all of them).

Re: Inside North Korea's Forced Labor Program

#150

Post by csomar »

jltsiren wrote: post #134
nradov wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade sanctions are actually bureaucratic yellow tape to get around with middleman shell companies. They are at least slightly effective by shifting a fraction of the profits from sanctioned entities to middlemen, so better than nothing. But mostly they allow countries to pretend like they're doing something without actually taking kinetic action. For example, there are currently a variety of sanctions against the Ru…

The purpose of sanctions is to increase friction and make the targeted entity less competitive. Nobody expects that they work perfectly, because there are always strong incentives for bypassing them. But the effects are often very significant in the long term. For example, see the differences between South Korea and North Korea. Nobody actually wants Russia to stop exporting oil, because they are one of the biggest e…

> For example, see the differences between South Korea and North Korea.

This is mostly a doing of the country (or elites) itself. North Korea could be much better (it's actually doing a lot better than many third-world countries despite their backward system) but they choose not to.

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