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More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

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Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#141
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

346 people died in two similar crashes of two Boeing 747 Max planes. Boing and the FAA initially cast the blame on supposedly lower standards at the Indonesian and Ethiopian airlines operating the planes, but this was completely unsupported and incorrect speculation. Poor processes at Boeing and the FAA were in fact responsible. Unfortunately the incorrect narrative has persisted.

Agree! By the time there were c380 Max's built, two of them had already fallen out of the sky (despite operating for only a year). That's c0.5% of the fleet falling out of the sky every 12 months! Still not too risky on an individual flight, but if you were a pilot across a 40 year flying career those odds start to stack up across your cohort! Plus it's a bizzare safety stance to try and sell "So what their planes fa…

>By the time there were c380 Max's built

???

Are you talking about the 737 max?

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#142
post #124
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "goal post moving" when his original post says "major airline".

You’re right, the goals were in a stupid place to begin with. I see no honest reason in the scope of this discussion to make this distinction. The regionals expand the network of the majors, it’s not like they overlap. People buy and use these services just like the major airlines. The distinction is interesting in the context of comparing the relative safety of the regionals but in a discussion about general airline…

My lack of including that flight was a mistake. I was unaware that Comair was operating as a subsidiary of Delta.

Still, it doesn’t really change the upshot. No manufacturer was at fault here. And even if you include this flight in the data, flying in the U.S. is safer than any other form of travel.

I chose to limit it to airlines operating in the U.S. due to our generally higher expectations around maintenance, pilot training, and workload, amongst other things. I chose to limit it to major commercial airlines because that is what most people fly on, and it removes extremely small tourism operators who are often far less rigorous in their safety practices and which are crewed by relatively low-hour pilots who are working up toward qualifying for a major. It also eliminates cargo aircraft which are not relevant. And lastly, I’m choosing to include only passengers to eliminate things like people walking onto active runways.

Hopefully you can understand why I chose these limitations. Not to skew the data, but because it is most relevant to most people on this site, and because it’s not really insightful or helpful to point out that there are many more crashes in the many countries out there with lax safety practices.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#144

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

It's not just about safety, it's about the flying experience and environmental responsibility.

If you think "flying sucks" it's probably because you've flown in a 737 and similar (A320) aircraft.

Many people find it highly stressful to fly in a 737-class airplane because the curve of the fuselage is circular. My neck starts to lock up just thinking about it, but you don't have the same problem riding in a car, bus, or train because those vehicles have straight sides. Modern aircraft like the A220 and E2-Jet have a shape compatible with the human body such that today's "regional jets" feel more like riding in a widebody airliner than a 737. It's the kind of thing that's hard to believe until you experience it for yourself.

The 737 is exceptionally loud, particularly for the flight crew, but also for the passengers and innocent people on the ground. If you think flying sucks it could be because you remember walking out of a 737 with your ears ringing -- and nobody told you it doesn't have to be that way.

The A320 has a reliable fly-by-wire system with numerous benefits, not least the plane being able to automatically cancel out some turbulence, another small thing that leaves you feeling better when you reach your destination.

The 737 struggles to take off under good conditions, requiring much more runway than many much larger planes. Next summer you'll see headlines that "airplanes" are grounded at some airports in the US Southwest, you should replace "airplanes" with "737s".

Airplane manufacturers have wasted enough resources on widebody airliners that nobody wants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380

and the industry needs to get real to the fact that narrowbody airliners are responsible for most of the flights and most of the social and environmental impact of aviation: domestic flyers in the U.S. deserve something better than a 1967 design.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#145
post #49
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you including only US airlines for comparing a plane model's safety? That seems very convenient. And even worse you are using other planes data as well.

Because most readers of this site are American, and fly on airlines from the US. When assessing their risk, it makes sense to use US statistics.

No it doesn't. That's called cherry picking data to fit a preconceived conclusion.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#146

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

It's not just about safety, it's about the flying experience and environmental responsibility. If you think "flying sucks" it's probably because you've flown in a 737 and similar (A320) aircraft. Many people find it highly stressful to fly in a 737-class airplane because the curve of the fuselage is circular. My neck starts to lock up just thinking about it, but you don't have the same problem riding in a car, bus, o…

Literally none of those issues were a problem for me and I've flown a lot over the past 30 years.

The #1 issue for me is leg room, being unusually tall. Headroom was never a problem :-)

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, want a door plug? Pay less (as you would be paying by risking your life).

Yea they could play it both ways, before and after the plug leaves the plane...

They could still charge extra depending on your pro/con door plug attitude with rationale matching your beliefs as to why they’re charging more.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#148

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

It's not just about safety, it's about the flying experience and environmental responsibility. If you think "flying sucks" it's probably because you've flown in a 737 and similar (A320) aircraft. Many people find it highly stressful to fly in a 737-class airplane because the curve of the fuselage is circular. My neck starts to lock up just thinking about it, but you don't have the same problem riding in a car, bus, o…

> domestic flyers in the U.S. deserve something better than a 1967 design.

Or maybe the market has spoken. Similar to how people complain about lack of legroom but proceed to book with airlines that have less legroom because it's cheaper, they're happy to fly on 1967 design planes to save a buck.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#149

Is there a travel site that allows you to filter out 737Maxes?

Two things:

1. Although the article states that the problem is with MAX planes, I am under the impression that this particular part of the design is common to all 737s. It might currently be limited to production runs of the MAX, but I don't think that's clear, and in theory the same defect is potentially in any recent 737. If anyone has better info, please let me know.

2. If it is limited to MAX and you're flying in the US, you can opt for Delta, which doesn't currently operate MAX. It does have 100 order for 2025, but for now, you're in the clear.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#150

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

Muilenburg was an engineer who worked his way up to CEO at Boeing. He totally mishandled the 737 Max crisis. Meanwhile, Airbus had an engineer CEO who nearly bankrupted the firm with the A380 project. I think trying to put management into buckets doesn't work very well. Some engineer CEOs have bad product sense and some sales CEOs have great product sense. I mean, Steve Jobs for crying out loud.

Couple other modern examples are AMD and Nvidia leaders.
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