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CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

forbes.com

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Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#141

Post by sanderjd »

dpflan wrote: post #93
programmertote wrote: post #81

I left Amazon a month ago (voluntarily) for a fully remote role because they asked me to move to Seattle/Arlington. When I joined them, I was already in a different state because of my wife's work. So I told them, I cannot join if they don't give me remote exception; it took them ~4-5 weeks to get the sign off for remote exception from the VP. I took the job and 9 months in, Jassy decided to force everyone back to th…

> "Since the RTO, a lot of my colleagues have started working at 9 am and log out at 5pm pronto" In office workers have more defined working schedules? Is that what this means? That seems healthy for the worker. -- UPDATE -- Must consider the commute factor for time-demand on employee.

Flexibility has both costs and benefits, for both employers and workers. Being able to switch off and on work throughout the day is a significant benefit for many people, and many people experience having a less well-defined schedule as a significant cost. For some people the benefit will outweigh the cost and for others the opposite will be true. (And I'm sure for lots of people, they will think the benefits outweigh the costs, while actually working in an unhealthy detrimental way.)

But one size doesn't fit all. I'm honestly sympathetic to management of companies figuring out how to balance what's best for individuals with what's best for teams and organizations as a whole.

But I strongly believe that the most successful companies coming out of this period will be those who take this problem seriously, rather than those who pine for the old days and "solve" it with a one-size-fits-all edict from the top.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#142

Post by bdw5204 »

swasheck wrote: post #126
dpflan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Since the RTO, a lot of my colleagues have started working at 9 am and log out at 5pm pronto" In office workers have more defined working schedules? Is that what this means? That seems healthy for the worker. -- UPDATE -- Must consider the commute factor for time-demand on employee.

i agree with the sentiment of your comment, but the pervasive RTO narrative from c-levels is not about restoring their employees' collective, holistic health. rather, it's couched in a narrative of productivity and community, the former being what i believe was being countered in the comment. there's also the push/pull of the health benefits and disadvantages of commutes and other external factors that go into office…

Employees working exactly 9 to 5 is absolutely the opposite of what employers doing RTOs for "productivity" want. They want them putting in unpaid overtime and are suspicious that they aren't when they're at home because they can't see them.

In a healthy work environment where there's high morale and trust, the exact work hours are going to be off somewhat on a day to day basis in either direction based on logical stopping points. In a toxic environment, workers will pretend to work towards the end of the day then go home exactly when the clock hits 5. Once they can, workers in such an environment will probably leave.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#143

Post by Joeboy »

lolinder wrote: post #25
2c2c2c wrote: post #13

does anyone really find RTO surprising? I know several people personally who just blatantly don't work. it's more obvious in roles where the work is less quantifiable, but even in engineering roles everyone hears stories the alternative seems to be aggressively metricize and cut-- but that seems bad for different reasons

If it takes being in person for your management to tell that someone is not doing anything and PIP/fire them, then I'd certainly call that poor management. You shouldn't have to look over my shoulder to know that I'm doing my job.

How specifically would I know that? Last time I gave somebody the benefit of the doubt I ended up doing their work myself over Christmas. I'm interested to know what I should've done to avoid that.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#144

Post by ianlevesque »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #73

If you don't want RTO just leave and work somewhere where remote is the culture. I just don't get this whole thing where you're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Just better for everyone if the in office people work in office and the remote people go to remote companies.

You act like they’re sorted into two distinct categories that never change. Why should the working agreement be upended at a whim with no data and then everyone sheep along? It’s the churn, with real consequences for where people live and socialize, send their kids to school, for the weakest of reasons.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#145

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

crowcroft wrote: post #26

Is it possible for someone to 1. Be a really good 'in person' manager (able to foster a good in-office culture, motivate and coach people effectively in real time). 2. Be a really bad 'remote' manager. Not saying RTO mandates are a good idea, but to say it's masking poor management as a black and white statement lacks nuance.

not only that, but they're making claims about research papers. What does that even mean?

It might even be true that some/most companies are doing it for this reason (I'm sure they wouldn't articulate it to themselves like that), but what the hell did they research exactly that came to such a qualitative conclusion? It smacks of a biased soft sciences approach to this as a means of fighting for the perception someone with money wants.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#146

Post by monknomo »

spacemadness wrote: post #38
2c2c2c wrote: post #13

does anyone really find RTO surprising? I know several people personally who just blatantly don't work. it's more obvious in roles where the work is less quantifiable, but even in engineering roles everyone hears stories the alternative seems to be aggressively metricize and cut-- but that seems bad for different reasons

I only hear about this on HN and Blind and have never seen it. HN and Blind really want to prove that people working at home don’t work for whatever reason, probably as we have the managerial class performing their own PR.

Blind, and to a lesser degree HN, seem to actively dislike IC-type workers, if not the work itself.

I feel like this is a cultural shift for hn, and I'm curious about where it comes from

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#147

Post by diob »

2c2c2c wrote: post #13

does anyone really find RTO surprising? I know several people personally who just blatantly don't work. it's more obvious in roles where the work is less quantifiable, but even in engineering roles everyone hears stories the alternative seems to be aggressively metricize and cut-- but that seems bad for different reasons

This is a management issue though. If they aren't willing to address folks who aren't working (blatantly in your words) when remote, they won't when in office. It's just now everyone gets collectively punished.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#148

Post by avensec »

melenaboija wrote: post #60
alberth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% Also, the tools a manager needs for 'remote management' is very different than what's needed for in-person. It's also very possible managers are not given the tools needed to manage a remote workforce.

What tools are needed for better remote management?

Soft tools for people. Some individuals need training on how to manage remote vs in-person effectively.

General discourse likes to identify the older generation as the ones who lose object permanence. The "if they aren't in a seat, they must not be working" mentality. Well, tomorrow's older generation is here today, learning to follow that same behavioral pattern. We have to begin training the culture today if we want to influence the future.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#149

Post by [deleted] »

2c2c2c wrote: post #13

does anyone really find RTO surprising? I know several people personally who just blatantly don't work. it's more obvious in roles where the work is less quantifiable, but even in engineering roles everyone hears stories the alternative seems to be aggressively metricize and cut-- but that seems bad for different reasons

[deleted]

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#150

Post by nickpinkston »

Fully agree with this post, and further think that a lot of execs have specific issues they feel from this:

- They often got into their role because of their IRL presence including:loud/aggressive voices, tall/physical imposing stature, etc.

- They like the feudal trappings of a big office with floors full of their reports, with a high end looking office, with assistants who get their coffee, etc.

Now that they're working at home, they lose their IRL advantages and perks, and it's actually a more meritocratic environment where you have to manage to metrics/plans more than walk around and catch the vibes. This penalizes bullshiters, which make up a high proportion of the executive class (speaking as one).

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