Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–149 of 149 posts

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#141

Post by keepamovin »

Gow8876 wrote: post #140

Just send in assassins. Those western countries leaders only have momentary leadership through voting election. After a couple elections, they are nobody. Consistently off them when they are nobody maybe together with their families. Do enough, western countries won't have enough law enforcers to protect. Remember Charlie Hebdo massacre? After that, many western countries dare not offend Islam. Xi needs to do this ma…

This is extreme-sounding. Care to explain your thinking / experience more? I'm interested! :)

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#142

Post by pi-e-sigma »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh :)

I assume you are referring to yourself? It is well know that none of the semiconductor equipment manufacturing is not in Asia due to the PRC. So you get fabs, but not equipment to produce fabs or keep fabs running (all by design, so China doesn't gain much if they take over Korea, Japan, or Taiwan).

How do you think Huawei managed to produce 7nm processors without Western EUV tools lately? Get on with the times instead of living in the past

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#143

Post by helij »

toss1 wrote: post #124
helij wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, we shall see. An awful lot of those giant leaps were extremely dependent on technology that was either systematically forced to hand over from democratic countries, or outright stolen by espionage (see their fighter jet vs F35, and some sub technologies). Here we go again. A little bit of reading here[0] and here[1]. [0] https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur... [1] https://en.wikipedia.o…

>>Here we go again. Nonsense. No one denies your list of pages of Chinese inventions from prehistoric, ancient and imperial periods. No one is saying that the Chinese are some kind of inferior race or incapable of invention. The present question is what can their society do NOW? Especially considering 1) Mao murdered & starved millions, w/strong emphasis on killing of "elites" and "educated" people in the "Great Leap…

Ok. You went from industrial espionage to authoritarianism, killing, society, etc.

I was purely answering to your issue with Chinese industrial espionage. You only mentioned their inventions and simply ignored the other link which shows Chinese are no different than others in terms of industrial espionage and stealing.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#144

Post by toss1 »

helij wrote: post #143
toss1 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Here we go again. Nonsense. No one denies your list of pages of Chinese inventions from prehistoric, ancient and imperial periods. No one is saying that the Chinese are some kind of inferior race or incapable of invention. The present question is what can their society do NOW? Especially considering 1) Mao murdered & starved millions, w/strong emphasis on killing of "elites" and "educated" people in the "Great Leap…

Ok. You went from industrial espionage to authoritarianism, killing, society, etc. I was purely answering to your issue with Chinese industrial espionage. You only mentioned their inventions and simply ignored the other link which shows Chinese are no different than others in terms of industrial espionage and stealing.

No different? Indeed, other societies have used industrial espionage and stealing in the past. But the Chinese have refined, funded, systematized, and integrated it into their development far more extensively than any other society, even the Russians, whose entire approach to silicon microchip development was to steal it and build a 'factory town' to develop based on the theft [0]; didn't work out so well.

One could say that the Chinese are world-champion innovators in the area of industrial espionage, both in the effort they put into it and the results.

The question is: now that this source of knowledge is being restricted, have they reached a point where they can 'reach escape velocity' mostly on their own?

I think it is an open question. I hope not, because that will mean effectively another 'end of history'[1], except with authoritarian states dominating.

[0] see https://www.amazon.com/Chip-War-Worlds-Critical-Technology-e...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Las...

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#145

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #142
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are referring to yourself? It is well know that none of the semiconductor equipment manufacturing is not in Asia due to the PRC. So you get fabs, but not equipment to produce fabs or keep fabs running (all by design, so China doesn't gain much if they take over Korea, Japan, or Taiwan).

How do you think Huawei managed to produce 7nm processors without Western EUV tools lately? Get on with the times instead of living in the past

Don't ask them about their yields if you don't want them to lose face.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#146

Post by seanmcdirmid »

corethree wrote: post #137
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China would be back to where it was 40 years ago. Yes, we will have to open up factories to produce cheap plastic things, but no, we won't miss China for very long. They aren't as essential as they think they are.

wishful thinking and a bit too biased towards patriotism. I'm looking for realistic answers here.

China has done this before, why not assume the previous result is the realistic answer if they try it again?

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#147

Post by pi-e-sigma »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think Huawei managed to produce 7nm processors without Western EUV tools lately? Get on with the times instead of living in the past

Don't ask them about their yields if you don't want them to lose face.

Nice moving goal posts around :) BTW what's the yield on Intel's 7nm process? Seems it's 0% LOL

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#148

Post by corethree »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #146
corethree wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wishful thinking and a bit too biased towards patriotism. I'm looking for realistic answers here.

China has done this before, why not assume the previous result is the realistic answer if they try it again?

Because the circumstance is different. China also did not do this before. I'm more talking about embargo on the entire US via china. China can still trade with the rest of the world.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#149

Post by fomine3 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #142
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are referring to yourself? It is well know that none of the semiconductor equipment manufacturing is not in Asia due to the PRC. So you get fabs, but not equipment to produce fabs or keep fabs running (all by design, so China doesn't gain much if they take over Korea, Japan, or Taiwan).

How do you think Huawei managed to produce 7nm processors without Western EUV tools lately? Get on with the times instead of living in the past

As TSMC did 7nm DUV
Post reply on HN