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Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

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Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#141

Post by fragmede »

bluGill wrote: post #133
jmyeet wrote: post #57

Americans have a very skweed view of what apartment living is actually like, in part because the construction of such buildings in America (outside of the ultra-luxury market) is generally terrible. Lumber is abundant in North America and cheap so everything is timber-framed, which is awful for noise. I actually do not understand how people can live in two-story houses in the US. Such people complaining about noise s…

You have a very incorrect build of what modern American construction is like. Yes it is mostly timer-framed, but we have fire codes which means walls are not as thin as you seem to think. Sure if you look at an apartment built in 1950 your summary is valid, but that isn't done anymore. 5 over 1 refers to section 1 and section 5 of the building code and not the number of floors built for each. It is coincidence that w…

it's still cheap and shitty and doesn't isolate sound, causing all sorts of problems with the neighbors that don't need to exist.

thick concrete walls might as well be hypothetical, theoretical building material given how much not expensive it is, and thus how much rarer it is.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#142

Post by 2-718-281-828 »

avgcorrection wrote: post #138
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't see why that should be grim. having more people around isn't beneficial in and off itself.

It might be “grim” due to demographic skew in terms of age over the long term.

you don't like old folks?

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#143

Post by estebank »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #130
Mawr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Ebikes let you cover great distances with little effort. - You can have someone ride on the backseat or in the cargo space of a cargo bike. [1] - You'd be hard pressed to come up with a shopping load that won't fit on a cargo bike. [1] Then there's the cost vs a car [2], which will likely make up for any inconvenience. Of course, you do need at least decent bike infrastructure for this to be realistic. [1]: https:/…

Imo, you are no longer talking about cycling once you're talking about ebikes and other motorized vehicles. You're talking about convincing people to buy worse cars. Motorbikes and mopeds and scooters already exist and people largely don't choose them over cars. Changing it to "electric scooter" or ebike doesn't suddenly make it more appealing. And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health"…

> And you certainly lose the "it's better for physical fitness and health" aspect once you're talking about motorized vehicles.

> Because electric bikes are less physically demanding on joints and muscles, they not only bring in riders who might otherwise be inactive, but they also offer the opportunity for people to ride longer periods of time and go greater distances. That leads to more folks using e-bikes as an option for commuting or running errands. Although users won’t find themselves doing the sort of vigorous physical activity uphill mountain biking or even hot yoga entails, e-bike use has been shown to deliver the sort of moderate physical activity most doctors recommend.

https://www.peopleforbikes.org/news/the-health-benefits-of-e...

The exercise provided by ebikes when all things are equal is lower than regular bikes, but all things are not equal as people with ebikes tend to ride more day to day (on aggregate).

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#144

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

I live in a high rise condo now, love that basically everything I need is one elevator trip away. Grocery delivers in under 15 minutes, like a charm. Maintenance takes me one hour a month, mostly changing various filters. Building is of higher quality so no noise issues. No steps to climb. But I'm a lazy retiree. For young people with children and dogs math is different.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#145

Post by davidw »

bluGill wrote: post #136

I don't have a large enough sample to make a statement, but my impression is apartments in Spain are larger than in the US. Even if you want to live in an apartment, if you want more space you are forced to buy a house. You can't get a 4 bedroom apartment (3 kids? separate office? hobby room?...) You can't get an apartment with two "living rooms" (music room, tv room, rec room...). You don't need any of that, but if…

Not sure about Spain, but in Italy, you definitely find a lot of 'family size' flats. We had a 3-bedroom, 2-bathroom flat in a 6-plex, and that is a pretty common sort of living arrangement.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#146

Post by estebank »

alphanullmeric wrote: post #63
bitwize wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

Nice way of saying your proposed transportation system doesn’t work without forcing people to live in cities.

It doesn't seem like cities need to coerce anyone to live in them. But when visiting cities it is better for the city, it's inhabitants and their visitors if they don't bring their negative externalities along from elsewhere.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#147

Post by analognoise »

Lord-Jobo wrote: post #129
treis wrote: post #97

Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.

This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…

“We made it terrible for our own people to make families, but don’t worry! We can keep the party going by importing loads of people due to economic forces!” Sounds so incredibly shitty.

If an economic system works so poorly for people they have to be imported (I.e. locals who want to form families can’t) it should be dismantled.

I care about “global capital” far less than I care about my compatriots ability to form strong families. We should absolutely be worried by terrible birth rates.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#148

Post by cies »

Lord-Jobo wrote: post #129
treis wrote: post #97

Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.

This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…

> population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focus on replacing or phasing out?

I have the same sentiment. Though I take that "reflection" means that it was the economic model we live in/under is what gave rise to the "population growth concerns".

That's part of why it's so hard to think of alternatives from within this model.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#149

Post by rangestransform »

jorvi wrote: post #65
dotcoma wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they got many things right in the Netherlands even with an incredibly low percentage of people living in flats. Bikes, not cars, please.

Except our distaste for flats has plummeted us into one of the worst housing crises of the entire world. Literally grinding our entire society to a halt, from students to young couples to prisoners to elders to cured long-term patients, everyone is trapped.

I don't actually think americans have a distaste for flats in general, but that some of them felt the need to impose their distaste for flats beyond the borders of their own land

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#150

Post by genman »

Lord-Jobo wrote: post #129
treis wrote: post #97

Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.

This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…

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